Brooksey and other 505 lovers

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roger
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by roger » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:42 pm

davidh wrote:Yes, spot the deliberate mistake.

The boat is of course 7939 but it matters not for she is for sure a classic (even though there will be some who say 'not yet').


D
David I take it you will be racing said boat in the Goodacre cup at Roadford. A little sideshow laid on at the same weekend for the non Cvrda boats.

I am sure she is a stunnig boat and I cant wait for my chance to carry on the tradition you started.... ie break bits off her. :twisted:

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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by Rupert » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:54 pm

More on the Goodacre cup, please! Is it for hangers on who couldn't find something decrepit enough for the main event?
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neil
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by neil » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:10 pm

more details on the Goodacre will be available soon.

It's the local open which is going to be run in parallel to the CVRDA event
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by davidh » Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:44 pm

Frankly Scarlett (or at least Roger) - I don't give a damn.

Assuming that the Smokers is still in the workshop, I could turn up with a borrowed, just eligible Merlin - which is blistering quick but to my jaundiced eye, just about as far from the definition of a 'classic' as you can get. This is a boat that if well sailed, would not be disgraced at many an open meeting so should be the perfect antidote to the east coast bandits. So who cares if this is not in that ethos of the association; it is legal, case rests.

No wonder then that I have a sneaky (no damnit - an open) sympathy with the Phantom sailors with boats that are totally outclassed within the ranks of their own kind, yet are apparently not welcome in the CVRDA.

Alan; I'm sorry that I missed you yesterday, I had a lot of work to get completed that I could not do at Torquay so in the end, with the prospect of Sunday 'back to London from the beach' drivers..... we dipped out of the last race, packed up and headed home.

7939 is a lovely boat but in reality is a bit like a pre Revo Hornet (could just turn up with Revo but some mard arse on a remote and obscure website somewhere would no doubt complain about that) - a bit like an early Mini with the 4 speed box; you're pushing hard yet still going a whole lot slower than the other road users.

No matter. It's still possible that at some point 7939 will morph into a fully fledged FD... now that is a nice idea, they seem a welcoming bunch... small in numbers, not too elitist, mildly eccentric, more or less like the CVRDA but more inclusive.

D
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roger
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by roger » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:53 am

David,

It would be so easy to just say yes we like your boat so come and sail and then we would have the next chappy who wants to bring a boat saying but you let him sail whats the difference. I agree the whole Merlin thing is becoming a can of worms with very little development in the boat recently.
The point is at present we have set rules which are applied across the board. may be we do need to tweak things a little here and there.
In the not to distant future I will be asking for proposals for the agenda for the AGM and this will be the chance to propose changes to the constitution. Discussion will take place on line in the time honoured fashion and a vote can be taken at the AGM.
I dont think the Phantom sailors are unwelcome to the Cvrda its just their boats dont ft the current criteria.If they wish to raise their case with the membership to be taken on as a special case then the AGM is the opportunity. If I rigged an assymetric kite to the Hornet i wouldnt fit the current class rules so couldnt compete. Its not a matter of being unwelcome.
We as a committee are very aware of the different needs of different members but it comes down in the end to how rapidly the association moves forward without losing sight of its original ideals of giving the old outdated boats a platform to race.
I am sure you agree it is not an easy task and to be frank it is a bit of a minefield. On one side you have people like Chris B who have rescued and restored beautiful boats in all their original glory who already feel that a carbon rig on a forty year old boat rather defeats the object of classic sailing and people such as yourself or the Phantom fleet who want to bring an outclassed boat in its own class but doesnt quite fit our current criteria. it is a tricky path we have to tread and as you know you cant please all the people all the time.

I personally appreciate all you do on behalf of the Cvrda and cant wait for the opportunity to break one of your boats. :D

Rog
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by davidh » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:00 pm

well said Roger and thank you: I would not have wanted to rock the boat, even less so in this celebration year.

Still, it saddens one when niggly doomsayers start the whispering campaigns - all the more so when it appears that a boat that was happily accepted when in the bosom (can I say that word without getting sent to the naughty step) of the South Western clique, becomes persona non grata once east of the Exe.

One reason for selling the John Claridge woodie Phantom was that I foresaw a minefield of issues looming and as I said, not wanting to rock the boat, just took the early way out. The money from the Phantom went in part into 7939. maybe that in turn now will become an FD!

Alan: Yes, of course you are right in saying that there has been some major variations noted in SOME (not all) Smod classes.

What I was talking about was something very different indeed. When Phil Morrison was looking to build his 505s, it looks as though he followed his own design philosophy and went for minumum waterline beam. Now I have the advantage of sailing Rondars - and Parkers (not to mention the odd Kyrwood now and then, plus a Waterrat or two) but none feel like 7939. We launched into the harbour, then had a windy run in the offshore breeze out to the start. We had not gone more than 200 - 300 m before I had Mike the crew checking the bungs and hatches into the forrard tank.

Each time I bore away down the face of a wave, the hull dipped into the water, right up to the flare of the gunwale. We ended up with a bow wave like a WW1 destroyer! You can even see it in the pictures taken on the day. The FRP Rondars were lifting up and splashing away on the plane.... vivre la difference.

But hold on a mo; these are boats from what is supposedly a 'strict' one design. We're not talking a few kilos difference here and there, but a noticeable difference in hull shape. The 505, Fireball, Finn, FD, Contender - to name just a few - have all allowed manipulation of hull form in complete contradiction to their own rules.

Take the Contender as an example:

Rule 5.2 states that the hull should be 'nominal' with the tolerances allowed for errors when the boat is being home built. Any attempt to manipulate the shape on purpose should be referred to ISAF.

Oh really? It is a documented fact that since K388 - in the mid 1980s, the hull shape has changed significantly - yet all the boats built since then have certificates. One enterprising builder went as far as building a Contender where the turn of bilge was so sharp as to almost be a chine... yet is races still with full acceptability. Then the Tornado..... another boat that started to get an 'edge' to it in more ways than one... yet the boat still passes the template test so is allowed to sail.

Now I am not about to start singing the praises of various SMODs, but at the same time, let us keep a sense of perspective in things. Either we all sail development/restricted classes and have open house, or we sail a one design which should mean just that. Maybe...just maybe, the door was not left open to Smods but forced off it's hinges by demanding sailors, greedy builders and a complacent administration.

So what has this to do with the CVRDA? Well, once a design within a design has been superceeded, then where can it go to sail? A league below newer boats in that class, such cases are sadly consigned to the back of the dinghy park and ultimately, the ebay fate of becoming a mega sized flowerpot. So by all means turn a Nelsonian blind eye BUT......things have changed in the last ten years and will change even more so in the next.

Back to hunting down the original revo this pm......

D
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by chris » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:36 pm

I haven't followed this thread and have only just read it - only been in a 505 once but did thouroughly enjoy swinging about on the trapeze).
Yes, Roger is right that I have been muttering about modernised old boats and also what is or is not elible for events under our CVRDA rules. Larks are a borderline case too that are really just 'out' too. merlins are tricky in that if you take the "designed before 1965" to mean that litterally then we stop roughly speaking at the end of the Proctor era, which to me makes a lot of sense because otherwise a 25 year old boat that is updated is, virtually a thouroughly modern merlin. Actually the constitution does not phrase it that way but does say the class must be pre '65. so Morrison-and-after designs are quite OK. But I must say that I think it is important that the hancicap that we use to favoure the aged boat is used effectly as it has been.

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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by davidh » Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:54 pm

A well made point chris.

In theory, it matters not what you sail - there is always the handicap there to prevent obvious 'abuse' of the classic boat definition. The alternative is that people like Strangler can sail the same boat that they race normally and thereby 'skew' the results. It is a shame to use Strangler as an example as his boat IS on the legal side - on the ethical side I may need to think a bit harder.

In the end, it comes down to the concept that you can either be 'in' - unless you're 'out', or conversely. 'Out', unless you just happen to be in.

I've pulled out of any plans to sail the five-O at Roadford so can now speak freely and without constraint. As Roger says, at some point the definitions will need to be either beefed up or relaxed, either way, the next decade will see change.

As an aside though... your point about Merlins is also well made. Take the Smokers as an example. Fully CVRDA legal, yet in performance (as a function of handicap) this sort of boat is stuck between the real oldies, with a great handicap, and a newish Merlin, which even with a more stringent PY number, will still prevail.

Glad this is one that I do not have to sort out.
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by Brookesy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:18 pm

At the risk of taking this off thread, although its wandering already, I think Chris has nailed it by pointing out the wording of the Constitution. I do not think we are anti Phantom Lark or 505 for that matter, but we currently have a Constitution which clearly makes them ineligible due to the design/date criteria.
No matter how much we make the case for each individual class to be included unless we are willing to 'evolve' our constitution to be more inclusive, the line is drawn in the sand.
Is this the thin edge of the wedge?, I think if the committee makes a ruling on this, who are we others to argue, but I think the issue should be addressed, and get on with sailing.
In the meantime the search for the CVRDA 'Bandit' by some can be solved by the enforcement of a good handicap, which will prevent the old boat with the latest gear from buying a win.

As mentioned earlier at Roadford for the August Bank Holiday we have the Club Regatta running in tandem with the CVRDA Event, more details will follow shortly but basically if you are outside of the CVRDA criteria you will be more than welcome to swell the ranks of the Roadford Handicap Fleet and enjoy the fun just the same. That 505 went particularly well down here David so why not give it a go.Or maybe we can find you a FINN.
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by DavidC » Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:51 pm

With regard to whats in and whats out, I assume that the constitution was not handed down from above and is a document like and set of rules, written on paper and not carved in stone.

Everything evolves and it is only the speed at which this happens which is controlled. I am not say what if anything should change but the conditions should always be reviewed regularly and adjusted if required. What worked well 10 years ago may now need some tweaking.

I think there is always some confusion as to what the terms One Design mean. Jack Holt said that a one design ceased to be a one design the day you built the second boat. A one design does not mean and to be honest never has that each boat is identical in every aspect. Every boat fits within a set or rules however tight or loose and they are transparent and everyone can see what is or is not happening and can check it themselves.

I agree that there has been very poor leadership from the upper echelons of the sports management over the years - and it continues still! - which has allowed some more extreme versions to become the norm when perhaps they should have been stopped. However, every builder and sailor wants the edge even if they will not publicly admit it and so these situations are inevitable. Because of the development of new materials, speed differentials will always take place even without shape change and what ever you do, new boats are generally faster than older ones. Sailing is an equipment based sport and understanding and developing the equipment is a fundamental part of it.

The main factor with all the OD classes is the transparency. Whether you like it or not, the rules are there for everyone and sailors can get involved in decision making within the class. The rose coloured spectacles presented by SMOD's are just that. We are not talking about "a few kilo differences" but fundamental changes which you will never know about because you are not allowed to see the rules, specifications or any other document and you will certainly never be allowed to become part of the decision making process.

Maybe this has wondered a little off thread, but surely the benefit of using handicaps is that we can be inclusive and control any unwelcome "bandit" that way rather than deny membership in the first place. 8)

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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by Rupert » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:45 pm

I'd just like to revisit the case of Strangler and his Hornet at last year's Netley event. I confess I wasn't aware that there had been any mutterings - the boat was a well set up qualifying Hornet, sailed very well and a deserved winner. The conditions suited him, and I certainly have no quibbles about being soundly thrashed! I hope that the handicap points we gave Roger to compensate for the age thing were enough to mean that helming skill and the windy conditions were the deciding factors between the boats.
Despite Saskia the Firefly being 50 years old, exactly the same points can be made about her - she is pretty much up together and is sailed week in week out. Is she against the ethos of the cvrda? As she did the 1st and will be doing the 10th Nationals, I hope not.
Personally, I will be suggesting to have on the agm agenda that we expand the vintage wing to include all pre 1965 boats that are set up within the spirit of originality, so for instance a Firefly with steel plate, wood topped mast and brass bits would count as vintage. Chances are they would also have a set of Ratsey terelene sails, as the new sails don't go up the wood track very well, but sails, being disposable, are a tricky area.
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by neil » Tue Jun 16, 2009 7:52 pm

The problem is concept of the "bandit". There have been many discussions about buying the "bandit" to win at CVRDA events. For me, this is not what the CVRDA is about, though others will disagree and the CVRDA is broad church - which is why it is attractive as it consists of sailing members with different perspectives, experiences and ideas. Like others I have rescued old and broken boats and spent more time than is healthy getting them on the water. This is why I sail with the CVRDA. Personally I don’t give a toss about winning when at CVRDA events – I can do that in my other boat.

If someone wants to spend their time and money searching for and buying a boat that scrapes in under the 25 year old rule or argues on a technicality just to win (and apparently we have to win at all costs) then that's up to them. But don't expect all the members to agree with this.

As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, we have a constitution, we have an AGM. Instead of snide comments about 'niggly doomsayers from the south-west', delusions of 'rumours' and accusations of the CVRDA being non-inclusive, perhaps energy would be better spent in developing a workable proposal or proposals that can be discussed here and brought to the AGM. Or we can go sailing.
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by Rupert » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:08 pm

Has anyone actually ever really bought a "Bandit" especially to win at the cvrda? I'm sure people have come along to join in with boats that barely qualify, probebly because they like sailing with and discussing old boats, as they happen to own that sort of boat, but actually to set out deliberately to find a boat to win in? I'm not sure I've ever felt that winning a cvrda event was a big enough deal for that to be worth it - no one else actually cares who wins but the winner (or is that only when I win?!).
I confess I like to win, (actually, I think I like to feel I've sailed my best - if that involves being beaten by one of the many better sailors around, so be it) and as I use my boats at club level, where I need to be competitive with a modern PY, they tend, if I can be bothered to spend any money, to have gear that isn't as the boat was when new. I'm not alone in this, and gladly see handicap points dished out to those like Chris and Neil who own true classics.
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by PeterV » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:19 pm

Isn't the simplest solution to propose a separate class at the AGM, which includes additional classes agreed on an individual basis, e.g. 'Wooden Phantoms with sail numbers below xxx, sailing with an alloy mast and dacron sail'.
Any other definition doesn't really work. This avoids allowing Lasers in (which seems to be one of the worries) and allows a controlled introduction.

Personally I struggle to see where the main argument is. I always felt it slightly strange that my 1969 Lark couldn't sail when a 1985 Merlin could, but I also saw no need to sail my Lark in CVRDA because it was pretty competitive against a brand new one. Same with my Laser, despite all the controversies about SMODs, I managed to sail my 1974 Laser into the top 20 of a 120 boat Inlands recently where my boat was the only one over 5 years old. With these boats there's no argument that it's outclassed by newer boats. However this cannot be the sole argument, since many CVRDA eligible Fireflies have won the Firefly nationals.

One of the difficulties was mentioned earlier, what makes the biggest difference, the hull, rig or helm? My Lark was very slow with the original sails, but set up with new sails and a tuned rig was fast. Should it therefore be sailed in CVRDA with the old rig beacause it was outclassed? I don't think so, which is why I think the individual class proposal above is the only one that makes any sense.
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Re: Brooksey and other 505 lovers

Post by Nigel » Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:37 pm

We could just go sailing!

If anyone offends us so much we could just not bother talking to them.

BTW If ever I am in danger of winning anything, please point it out and I will retire immediately. That is not why I go sailing :) .

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