Flow chart for eligible classes

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davidh
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Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by davidh » Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:58 pm

As this would otherwise be 'off topic' I've started another string, I'm sure that this one too will get a few interesting comments.

Some time back, when we were trying to identify a boat (it might have been the MOGO) someone, it could have been Nessa, came up with the idea of a simple flowchart that was linked to a dinghy details database.

How about taking that one step further and using it to determine eligibilty.

So the first question is

Age of Boat

followed by

Age of design

These two criteria along should sort out many of the boats into which 'wing' the boat belongs.

Then you can add

Design of boat

which would then check to see if there is an active class association, for if not then 'lost'?

For those boats that are included, it might even be possible to have the sort of question I get on my motorcycle insurance forms "has anything been done to improve the performance?"

with a drop down menu of : alloy mast, carbon spars, carbon foils, mylar sails etc etc. From that, the site could even indicate what the baseline PY number 'may' be. The advantage is that this could be web based, so anyone wishing to sail could easily run their own 'am I eligible or not' exercise. (the if no could still offer a link to write in suggesting to the Association that they should be included - and why)

I'm sure that amongst the many practicioners on this site that there are those who know how to put these things together.

Simple, effective, up front and above all, boat specific (rather than the person).

So take Ed's sage comment over on the question raised by Laser tourist - re the Javelin.

Key in details, you'd find that the boat was not only 1971 but that it has an active class association, ergo, not eligible.

ah well, seemed like a good idea when I thought about it....now not so sure!

D
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Rupert
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by Rupert » Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:38 pm

Sounds like a good idea, though I'm not sure enough people know the critical info about their boats, or judging by the response to the similar suggestion I made a while ago for each boat having the info on line, cares enough about handicapping or eligbility.
I'm slightly worried that the "don't care" option is winning the poll, currently. Maybe we are asking the wrong questions.
Rupert

Michael Brigg
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by Michael Brigg » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:50 pm

Rupert said:-
I'm slightly worried that the "don't care" option is winning the poll,
Order Order!

The best way to get on in politics is to be sure that you are considered to be the least worst candidate by the majority of voters that do not have a strong opinion. As the "honourable gentlemen" look to find themselves a new speaker we should we not take note of how not to make the wrong choices? (Enough double negatives there to do credit even to "Sir Humphrey of administrative affairs!)

I don't think "Don't mind" is is a "Don't Care" option. It is a "vote of confidence" in the committee and assotiation's ability to provide a home for boats which, for whatever reason, are considered by their owners to be "Classic" or "Vintage."

It is not, as inferred, a home for boats that can be picked up for peanuts on ebay, (although there are a few.) but it is one of the forum's idiosyncracies that it can inform members about any treasures that are there, a little like the "Antiques road show," to be plucked from the fire and given a new lease of life and value.

"Don't Mind," to me says I don't mind as long as this sailing club give's me an opportunity to race my boat where my own sailing club has dropped the boat in favour of a supposedly more modern design. :evil:

How many sailors that have older boats that they race in the CVRDA events possibly have a similar problem? They may have lavished as much time or attention or money as they are able to maintain whatever happens to be their favourite craft, and find that their club has left them high and dry in an undersubscribed or unfairly handicapped "fast or slow division" with a disparate group of similarly disenfranchised helms and crews and no developed sense of belonging to a class that represents their club. :cry:

I'm not even sure either about a blanket ban on assymetrics, as I'm sure there must be some of these to be found pre 1965, although I can see that a penultimate i14 might rather rock the boat.
Michael Brigg

Rupert
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by Rupert » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:52 am

Hmmm, maybe...
Rupert

davidh
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by davidh » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:15 am

Hi there Michael,

THis is a worrying trend! Last night I was agreeing with Ed, this morning I'm agreeing with you. Worry not, it won't last!

No --I do not think that I would paste a blanket 'ban' on anything, as I would far rather work on the premise that you are 'in' unless you're out - rather than the 'out' unless you are in.

Frankly Nigel, Jim tacking downwind is the least of our problems. Years (eons ago even) I sailed 14s with the 'old' rig, only to find that when running square on the spinnaker foot drooped low, giving helm and crew almost zero visibility forward. Clibb may well have a veiw on this too but as we may well have more than one classic 14 (if Nessa brings hers along too) then these really can be an issue. They sail fast yet with a crew you can see little ahead of them.... so actually Jim's Cherub would be by far the lesser of two evils.

Your parting shot re the penultimate 14s goes right to the heart of the concerns that I held that sparked this whole debate off. Scroll back the 25 years we have today and you're at 1984 - Now what a wonderfully significant year to freeze things in place, for this just predates the changes in the 14 rules but by the time the second decade is under way, they would be in. Hence my thinking about putting the limit back to 30 years - for that makes the thinking behind the boats far more along the lines of the classics - rather than the modern versions of the older development classes.

The only concession would be that should anyone have already sailed a boat that is currently 'in' but under these criteria would be 'out'.... well, they are automatically 'in'.

I sat down and started work last night on thge wider impact such changes would make.

Pushing the guillotine date out to 1975 would allow many more 'lost' classes (we already have a Typhoon in the fleet which uner our current rulings is 'out' - or in as a lost class?) not to mention of the whole slew of designs that graced the late 1960s/early 1970s and then vanished without trace. Saving these 'lost' classes really ought to be a bigger part of what we do, for they are an important part of the dinghy development heritage. For example, saving the Typhoon should have a place, where as saving yet another Phantom Kipper, or Smokers (when there are already loads of them being saved) adds little to our store of knowledge.

Happy Days

D
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by Rupert » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:13 am

davidh wrote: For example, saving the Typhoon should have a place, where as saving yet another Phantom Kipper, or Smokers (when there are already loads of them being saved) adds little to our store of knowledge.

Happy Days

D
Is the cvrda about deciding which classes "ought" to be saved? I thought it was about having a place, on the water and in hyperspace, where owners of old boats could go, whether they sailed something unique and beautiful or common and crappy. Stores of knowledge are wonderful things, but are only an issue for a few of us.

On the subject of the flow chart, I did a little in my head with my 1974 Europe, and, of course, it comes in the old fleet. But she feels like a classic, with her wooden moulded side tanks and all. What it made me remember is that the majority of the Old fleet are not just qualifying 25 year old carbon 505s or ultra wide Merlins, they are old and tatty 1970's versions of boats which have often changed out of all recognition. Not sure where this left me in my thinking about where the wings should go, though. Maybe towards the idea of the ORDA association as a branch of the CVRDA, as was suggested on the other thread by Nigel(?) to take on the old wing, lost classes and selected non qualifying classes like the Phantom.
Rupert

davidh
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by davidh » Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:32 pm

Now be gentle Rupert! I do not think I suggested that the CVRDA should decide what is saved and what not saved - in fact, I went out of my way NOT to say that.

But the fact remains that there are no shortage of merlins and indeed they have their own wing withing the main class association. But a Typhoon, Clipper, Silver Streak, Tango, not to mention Dart, Cavalier and Unit - well these are all lonely reminders of a time when an individual could say.... I think I'll have a go at designing my own boat.

The CVRDA could well be the last respite for some of these classes - and not just from the sailing viewpoint, but from getting help with all those skills that are fast deserting the toolkit of the modern sailor.

I am only speaking for myself here BUT to me, the CVRDA is about the classics - the vintage boats, so well represented by ISKA, Michael's Blue Moon, Nessa's 14 etc - and then the lost classes. After all, that is how I found my way here, via the 'what do I do with this?' question when I was looking at the Sandtex Scow aka Unit 7 (which is actually Unit 2....see where the history takes us). Lost cats too...... they too need a haven (and not just the PDSA)

Are there some wonderful boats out there, yet for whatever reason are 'lost' and unloved. You bet and for me, top of that list has to be the Mirror 14, a sweet boat to sail if ever there was one. Would I prefer to see a total hotch potch of these lost classes sailing or a fleet of 25 and a bit year old NSMs..... well, much as I love Merlins, I think the answer has to be the former.

As someone who has the job of looking at sailing with an eye open for a story, for what it is worth I think that sailing will soon face an ever greater period of change. Without being over dramatic, I see the signs of storm clouds in the sky ahead - and one of the few safe havens for the older boat - and sailor - cold well be within the CVRDA. If the Association was important before, it may be doubly so in the future.

D
David H

JimC
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by JimC » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:00 pm

davidh wrote:these are all lonely reminders of a time when an individual could say.... I think I'll have a go at designing my own boat.
What makes all this strange of course is that it has never been easier to design and build your own boat than it is now.

Nigel
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by Nigel » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:45 pm

JimC wrote:What makes all this strange of course is that it has never been easier to design and build your own boat than it is now
That is an interesting perspective. What leads you to that conclusion?

davidh
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by davidh » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:24 pm

Nigel,

From the 'design' point of view, even quite a modest PC should have the processing power to help the would be designer draw up a set of lines - and then show him the result as a 3D image.

But the real change comes when you try to build something. With the range of modern SP systems, making fillets up with 'bog', making joints has never been easier. You can get a decent jigsaw at Tescos (or even Aldi I expect) so in theory, it should be even easier than 'stitch and glue'.

The problem comes not with getting the hull - but the fitting out. That is where the money will suddenly start flooding out of your account!

D
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by Nigel » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:59 pm

Hi David,

I was looking at it from a sociological rather than a technological perspective.

Yes one can pick up a cad package for very little money (I picked up a 3D cad package for £3.99 a few years ago). In years gone by, people relied on drawings. but the engineering knowledge to take advantage of CAD is scarcer now than the knowledge that previously existed to create and use drawings and the power of a PC is meaningless in achieving this aim if it is directed at gaming.

Similarly, only a few years ago, woodworking and other practical skills were far more commonplace than now. People worked at practical semi-skilled or skilled jobs. the economy has changed. Those few in factories and workshops are more often than not fitters rather than engineers and most jobs have moved to service industries in offices and call centres. One can buy a jig saw for £9.99 but that does not develop the ability to follow a line with it. In time gone by, people who lived in a more practical world developed these skills almost by osmosis.

From my perspective, the the mindset of our world has changed. My background has left me with the attitude that if something breaks, I will have a look at fixing it. People only a few years younger are astonished by this approach. For them, if something breaks, they throw it away and buy another one.

I am not saying that this is necessarily wrong, it is just different...but different enough to make the idea of designing and building a boat as out of reach as launching a mission to the moon.

I would also suggest that the final clench nail in the clinker of this particular coffin is that people have so many other demands and diversions on their time that the likelihoood of someone pursing this end is far removed from what it once was.

I am sure that there are many people on this forum with both the practical and technical skills to do this but I do not believe this is representative of the nation as a whole.

There must be a thesis in here somewhere :) .

Michael Brigg
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by Michael Brigg » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:04 pm

Nigel said
people have so many other demands and diversions on their time
I'm not sure I agree with this.

Computers certainly are a major thief of time. Not to mention MP3 Players, (No, Dad, it's not an MP3 player, (spot the deliberate wind up :wink: ) it's an I-pod!) Text messaging, email, Facebook and MSN instant messager, then there is shopping, going on sleep-overs and being given lifts to get to places where I would have cycled.

...but apart from that I don't think there is an excesive demand on the time of our younger generation.

Oh, I forgot Reality shows, Big Brother, X-factor, I'm a Celebrity, Brat Camp, Gok, and Satellite Sport. Then theres the slightly more intelligent things like "Friends" "The Simpsons" and "Futurama" which at least try to develop some rudiments of appreciation of irony and wit.

Modern "keep fit" is developing into "Wee Fit" and "Brain training." Interaction is limited to comparing scores on the Nintendo or X-Box. And now there is twitter.

What did we do with all that time?? I recall cutting my finger with Dad's chisel and learning the wrong way (painfully) to use a saw blade with a broken handle. It's been said before that in the Sixties you would be a family that did what the parents wanted to do. Since I couldn't sail I spent mornings paddling in the river Chess next to Troy Lake in Rickmansworth, catching minnows, or reading books or copying paintings of Ducks from the obeserver book of birds. We also had things to watch like the television Test cards!

Image

It's not the lack of time, its the excess of it and lack of ability to use time towards a constructive end. Electronic games do not make emotional demands upon you and like chocolate give much quicker gratification.

Mars Bars have been used like Gold as an un-alterable unit of economic measurment. So the value of a car or house in 1920 would be equivalent roughly to the same number of Mars Bars as a similar House or car 1n 1980.

I think today the price of chocolate, like time, has been devalued. Metaphorically there is so much of it about that quite apart from the epidemic of Type 2 Diabetes that is coming our way, we see that the younger generation has not learned the value of fidelity that comes from a slow introduction to a skill or pastime.

Our young people do not have too little time, they have too much. And like Chocolate, and Money, the excess of it is causing a devaluation.

What is it that our children do today, that prevents them from renovating, cleaning or maintaining wooden (or other) boats in the manner the some members do. Many of them sail them quite happily, so it isn't just a lack of desire to sail.

So lets bring back corporal punishment and school shorts and caps. :evil:

Lets hear it for boring days out as a family, to the local gravelpit or beach so that our children will look back upon these as havens of peace and tranquility to return to with replicas of the boats that they were bought up in. :D

This is where the future of the CVRDA lies, perhaps where it originally began.


(A little less grumpy!)
Michael Brigg

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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by Ancient Geek » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:23 pm

They should teach wood and metal work at schools too!

At my school cars were built, quality oak furniture built, Fireflys repaired, Enterprises built and we still had time to to study and to pass much more difficult A levels watch telly, read, go fishing and sailing.

But then we had real interesting teachers who could be diverted from the Battle of Hastings to the Siege of Kohima which a couple of them had actually taken part in! Teachers who had sailed or played Rugby for England and dressed in suits and shaved!
Simples.

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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by Michael Brigg » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:53 pm

Oh dear,

I shall recieve a whipping from the moderator I am sure. Topic Hijacking, Of topic and even trolling a response from AG about Old schools!! :oops: :cry:

But hey ho, I know David won't mind! :D

So where was I, Qualifying formulae or flow charts or "decision trees." (The latter comes straight out of a teaching manual I'm sure.)

I never got my head around the Offshore or 1/4 ton, or Channel Handicap formulae and I'd be equally lost with a Classic or Vintage formula as well (having learned maths at a private school)

A cardiologist I worked for told me (about how to distinguish Heart Murmurs) that I should forget about wether I could hear "reverse splitting of the 1st and 2nd heart sounds" and other such vital ways of distinguishing a "Tetralogy of Fallot" from a "patent foramen ovale."

The fact is that you recognise a dog by it's bark. Never mind it's pitch or volume. A great dane is a great dane and a Jack Russell is a little Bastard.

The same I believe can be said about a Classic Racing Dinghy.
Michael Brigg

JimC
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Re: Flow chart for eligible classes

Post by JimC » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:11 pm

Nigel wrote:That is an interesting perspective. What leads you to that conclusion?
To build a good wooden boat you need some fairly serious skills and a good selection of tools. To build a foam sandwich boat you need about one third of the skills and about one third of the tools. You just need to be able to tolerate dust...

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