The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

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davidh
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The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:13 pm

As you will have seen elsewhere, there has been recent discussion on which boat should one be thinking off IF the object of one's desire is to be photographed kissing AG! (not to mention the posession of a small cup)

Now my reasoning goes as follows..............

You do not want to be at either end of the handicap spectrum, as though you may win the occasional race by a big margin, this does not help put a 'series' together.

Few CVRDA events are going to be held in strong breezes (unless yon plan on coming to Netley in 2011) so whatever you sail has to be optimised for light-medium conditions.

If the boat chosen has a spinnaker, then it has to be so well sorted that it can be flown at every possible opportunity

A trapeze is not essential (see comment about sailing in breeze above) but if it is included - then the crew has to be capable of maximising it's use.

We discounted the Mirror 14 and 16 as being too flat aft - in light airs they tend to stick.

A single hander (finn, OK, Harrier) would work but you'd have to be very confident of your ability to max out against an equally well prepared XXXXX class.

We started to pull a short list together.......

Swordfish
Kestrel
Beaufort
Pegasus
Silver Streak
Clipper

but we're sure that there is a lot more.

One big question that nags away though....why has a Merlin never really figured big time in the CVRDA results? After all, they seem to have all the desired qualities?

So- with the christmas 'silly season' now upon us....

What do YOU think is the ultimate Handicap Bandit?

D
David H

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Ancient Geek
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Ancient Geek » Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:59 pm

I would guess that the reason for Merlins not winning very much in CVRDa events is that often they seem to deliberately handicap themselves by using cotton sails and not often flying spinnakers, I understand why they do so but it is clear that any handicap allowances for such things are not enough. The alternative could be the other boats are better sailed?
Simples.

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Brookesy
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Brookesy » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:03 pm

YW Dayboat...
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Rupert
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Rupert » Wed Dec 02, 2009 2:16 pm

The boat that is sailed by the best helm, and actually suits the water.
Rupert

davidh
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:15 pm

Rupert,

Thanks for making the point for me - exactly!

The best boat in the world is still nothing without a decent helm - but if you take that factor OUT of the equation, then you're right - the best boat for the conditions and location. I'm amazed at the performance you/the Dreaded Mr Briggs can wring out of a Firefly singlehanded, my guess is that we ought to add the Albacore to the list too. As Brooksey has just pointed out, the YW Dayboat could well figure, for it ticks many of the boxes.

But the debate is interesting - for it shows up just which boats people think are good and those that they think are not. i'm sure that Nessa will join me in condemming the Contender to a 'don't bother the scorers' position on handicap - unless you've a F4 and an open water course. (at which point 2 lightweights in an old Rondar 420 will be over the horizon!)

I'll refine the criteria a tad more...my guesstimate is that the 'best' (to my limited knowledge) handicap boat will be pitched somewhere between 90 and 100 on the old, pre-decimalisation system.

AG may have a point about the Merlins....does this suggest that the handicap advantage given to a boat with cotton sails is less than generous?

D
David H

alan williams
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by alan williams » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:50 pm

Hi David
Although not a handicap bandit in the same sense as before a well sailed Fireball will be at the front regardless of conditions or locality. My Handicap bandit would be an Explorer raced against one at a one of a kind meeting. Mega amounts of sail powerful hull and easy to sail with a a really low PN around that of an Alpha, British Moth in light airs and the skiff type Int Moths Chelsea Mornings etc. if there are any still around.The greatest light breeze machine would be the Slipstream but I've only ever seen one once back in the 60's. Other more recent boats would be the Laser Stratos with trap and spinnaker and also the dreadful Mango in a blow in flat water. Of the older designs anything that was not sailed as a class by top helms. The Swordfish kite is to small to give it any advantage down wind being about mirror 10 size. Any of the numerous local classes that used to exist and of course the NATIONAL 18.

Regards
Al Finn 424 Shark41.

davidh
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:59 pm

Alan,

Think you too are right and take your point on the Swordfish Kite.

I'm a worried man now.... the more I look at this problem, the more the obvious answer stares me in the face (as in, why reinvent the wheel).

But - after all the things I've said about the Pegasus, if I sailed one of those I'd never be allowed to forget it - not on this website for sure!!

D
David H

alan williams
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by alan williams » Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:08 pm

Hi Dave
Also should have said a Classic 14 with a crew that know what they are doing. I have for years been trying to find my old 14 Audacity 732 and would really like to buy her back and restore her, her last known location was some where in S.Wales.
The Osprey is also a very good handicap racer being very slippery in the light stuff and are well able to sail to it's handicap and exceeding it in a blow, if you are good enough and brave enough to fly the kite.
Al Finn 424 Shark41
Ps
Yes you would get stick from me. However before you sail a Peggy you would have to learn a whole lot of new skills such as sailing whilst smoking a pipe, keeping pipe going when capsized. Capsizing and sinking due to the fact that you have n't sealed around the fifty thousand hatch covers in the boat. Finding a peggy in a hedge and deciding that it's salvable. Wearing silly hats and of course you have to have legs like Keith. Being able to waltz around an Albacore mast head. Be capable of doing a very good impression of U42 crash diving,. And finely say that you think that the handicap is not generous enough ( comment made by an expeggy sailor and not by Keith or David).
I rest my case mil lord

Pat
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Pat » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:55 pm

DayBarge for Shearwater , especially when sailed by an ex DayBarge national champion :)

Rupert
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Rupert » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:42 pm

I've been beaten many times by a Contender at Whitefriars - he is top 10 Nationals standard (Richard Gimmler) sometimes in some very un Contender like conditions.

I'm amazed by the performance of the Dayboat at Shearwater - I know you all complain about it, so it must be true. I guess that the large, soft sails make up for the weight, and there is no spinny to loose valuable time, and a jib to get good pointing, it is round bottomed. But I'd back a Firefly against one (sailed by equal helms) up until wind spilling weather - but then maybe momentum has a lot to do with it, provided you are good at keeping the boat moving.

As for one for the Broads, I assume that big sails are useful, and an ability to manouver. If you wan to really fit in, surely a 1920's Morgan Giles 14 would be the answer? Or a Punt? And you are right about the cotton sails needing another point or 2, though Chris has been up in the top few many times with his. But then in the light stuff he ought to be, with that towering rig, and the handicap should reflect the fact that cotton sailed boats cannot be pushed as hard when it blows.
Rupert

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jon711
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jon711 » Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:43 pm

On Oulton Broad the Oulton Raters take a lot of beating, as do the Norfolk Dinghies.

When Beccles had a Silver Streak fleet, they were beatable, but that may have been more down to the sailors than the boats!!

Enterprises do go very well on the Broad, and it is a great shame that we don't have an Enterprise fleet anymore!

Jon

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Brookesy
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Brookesy » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:03 pm

The Zenith as Davidh mentioned in his initial list is another that performs well in most conditions and planes very easily, we now have one at Roadford and there should be one in need of restoration being put on here for sale to a good home in the near future.
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davidh
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:37 pm

Rupert,

I espied Richard's boat at Whitefriars last year and you're right, he is a very canny helm. As you said earlier, helm skill is probably the single biggest factor - the ability of a sailor to get the most out of his boat is maybe a greater need at this level than the 'big fleet' mindset that works so well for some helms at top competitions.

I think the Zenith is a good call - but still think on balance that a well sorted Peggy would have the legs on it (nice round hull in the light stuff - trapeze for when the breeze comes up)

D
(oh dear...what have I just said..... forgive me, for I know not what I say)
David H

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jon711
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jon711 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:29 am

Oh how could I forget, the biggest handicap bandit of all time on the Broad, no, I can't bring my self to say it.....

Ohhhhhh (gritted teeth).......

Go on Jon you know you can....

I just can't say that word....

Be brave, Jon......
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Nearly brave enough now!!
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Getting braver!
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Go on Jon you know you can - deep breath...
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Phantom (there done it!!)

Exhale.....

I feel so much better now having got that off my chest!! (If slightly unclean for using that cursed word!)

Jon

Rupert
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Rupert » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:47 am

Luckily the Phantom (especially in carbon masted bandit form) isn't a cvrda boat! And I don't think the wooden single bottomed tin rigged version is much of a bandit...
Rupert

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