The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

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davidh
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:39 pm

Jon,

That's it.... if you're going to use language like that then you've just reinforced all my negative views about them wot hail from the east.

Don't you know that children and those of a tender disposition sometimes read this site (most of the time tis them that write the comments)..... but you used the big P word, without warning and before the 9pm watershed..... shame on you.

Did Dave C put you up to it or was it all your own work?

D
David H

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jon711
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jon711 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:50 pm

No, I did clear the 9:00 PM watershed posted at half past midnight!!!

DavidC
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by DavidC » Thu Dec 03, 2009 1:13 pm

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Nigel
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Nigel » Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:28 pm

Hi all,

I am now back and catching up with all the postings while I try to re-aclimatise to the winter weather & get the sand out of various places :).

My simplistic thoughts -

What makes a bandit? - as it is a boat that apparently sails in excess of its PY and based on the assumption that the PY system functions as it should I can see maybe three things that could contribute:

1. A boat with a particular bias toward particular sets of conditions (e.g. Ghost, A-rater.....)

2. A boat that is much better than the average boat of its class (the rest of the fleet's results will increase the PY). This may be due to maker or design or simply a profusion of old dogs in that particular class.

3. A boat that disproportionately rewards good sailing but is accesssible & desirable for the rest (for the same reason as 2. above).

There may be some more reasons that I haven't yet thought of but this seems a (slightly) more scientific approach to differentiating between bandit boat and dynamite helm.

Any thoughts on this & how the suggested boats fit into these & other suggested criteria?

Best Regards,

Nigel

davidh
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:37 pm

Nigel,

My guess is that you've pretty much said it as it is.

You could also add in the aspect that many older boats lacked the years of development that over time, resulted in a downward pressure on their PY number. A good example of this could be the Swordfish - once the Albacore came along, the writing was on the wall for the older boat.

To recap though - I think one can be fairly scientific about this. Handicap number in the mid 90s +/- 6 or 7 points, with an emphasis on performance inland or in lighter conditions.

That suggests a round bilged hull, not too much wetter area, plenty of sail and not too much weight. The other thing that would make a big difference is being able to 'work the boat up' in a competitive environment. Jim C is right in many ways, much of the hype of Handicap banditry is just that......

Of course, there are boats - and the Phantom is one such example, that has a small number of highly developed boats in a much larger fleet. The core boats will struggle to get anywhere near the performance of the modern FRP/carbon boats - hence the success of the boat in the big one off handicap events.

In the end, I think the actual choice of boat is less important that how it is prepared and sailed. Does it matter if you sail a peggy, Merlin or YW daybarge. If the sails, foils and hull finish are all good, all the on board systems work correctly and the boat is 'well' sailed by helm and crew...... then the chances are you'll be there or there abouts.

But there are boats out there that seem to have that added 'zip'.... any more suggestions?

D
David H

Keith66
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Keith66 » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:29 pm

Another vote for the YW Dayboat, back in 78 my father & i built a glued clinker one no 596 "Phantom".
I raced her at our club for quite a while & she proved to be very hard to beat, she was up against GP14's, Lasers, Solos, 470's & assorted other dinghies. I aint that good but her handicap was so jammy she could hardly lose unless i did something really stupid. In a blow she was unbeatable. Trouble was hauling her up the slipway when you risked a rupture!
If anyone ever hears of her i would love to know, last heard of in Milford haven.

Michael Brigg
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:32 pm

It was always said of the "Whitbread race" that it was won and lost in the Doldrums. This is simply because in terms of time about 80% of the race was spent negotiating a way through the light stuff and much greater differentials of speed and acceleration can be generated when a boat is not operating at it's maximum speed. The same I would presume applies to a "Handicap Bandit."

Another important factor is Current. Supposing you have 5Kn current, then a 5.5Knot average will make progress whereas a 4.5Knot boat will go backwards although it can in fact exeed its natural hull speed if it needs to use a kedge. However the slower boat only prevails if both boats need to use Kedges and only if it only has to use a kedge before the faster boat finishes.

If there is tide then local knowledge will also be crucial, as will knowledge of the wind patterns. Call it banditry, but a great deal of the GB success in Quingdau was down to accumulated wind data. The Chinese even used their internet censorship arrangements to Hack into the British database I'm told!

A slow boat will be favoured by an early start time if the local wind pattern starts light and progressively increases over the morning, and conversley, a dying breeze in the afternoon will favour the afternoon start for a flyer.

So, AG, make sure your firewall is fully updated!!

Assuming no current then a slow boat is not at such disadvantage. Since much data on handicapped boats is derived from returns from Tidal water clubs these returns may show boats that can easily stem the tide to be relatively faster than is truly the case, and this should theoretically push the data in favour of smaller or slower boats when sailed on inland still or non tidal waters.

The single handed firefly in light air benefits from exceptional manouvrability, a degree of ease in "roll tacking" which is able to push the rules on this kind of behaviour to the limit, and a hull shape that can be used to maximise the need to alter the wetted area according to need. This is especially seen to advantage in narrow confined water requiring frequent tacks. The firefly can be taken through these manouvres without any significant change in speed and the round hull minimises any disturbance of the water. Sat forwards in the boat well down to leeward maximises the volume of the bilge and gives an almost perfect shape to the wetted area for light airs and the soft sail is shaped by gravity and doesnt demand violent "flicks" to invert full length battens etc.

Perrhaps the only disadvantage on a shallow broad is its relatively deep plate, but even here the depth of rocker and a small keel will minimise side slip if the plate needs lifting to creep over shallow patches.
Michael Brigg

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Ancient Geek
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Ancient Geek » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:39 pm

Funny you should say that, Oulton Broad has its shallow spots.
It was the bitter winter of 1962/3 and we were boat building. My friend and rival Nick together with and principally by the late Ricjard Debenham were building what were to become the two very successful Merlin Rocket Dinghies.
In between waiting for glue to set or just for merriment, we took to playing with the yard crane, and seeing how much weight the ice would stand.
We wanted to make an ice yacht out of an old mast and road trailer!
We realised we were “bouncing” a ton weight on the ice!
It suddenly seemed a better idea to take our mothers Minis (cars not skirts) and race round the ice bound racing marks on the open water! ( I could drive nut was too young to drive on the roads.)
It was huge fun.
Until, Nick who was well in the lead got to the North Bay, suddenly he hit a soft spot and the car began to go through the ice.
Ever the practical man Nick bailed out and ran for it towards me, who was sliding to a sort of a halt.
As we excited towards the known solid ice his mother’s mini went down like the Titanic.
Back at the yard we parked my mothers car and wondered what to do.
Fate takes over here, because it was assumed that the car had been nicked (stolen that is not lost by Nick!) The Police informed an insurance claim made and duly paid out!
Nothing was admitted but to this day if racing on that piece of water there is one spot we avoid and where mysterious groundings occur!
Simples.

Michael Brigg
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Dec 03, 2009 10:16 pm

Die another day??

Naaa, its been done before!
vanquish-and-xkr-die-another-day.jpg
(53.57 KiB) Downloaded 155 times
Michael Brigg

JimC
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by JimC » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:01 pm

davidh wrote:and the Phantom is one such example, that has a small number of highly developed boats in a much larger fleet. The core boats will struggle to get anywhere near the performance of the modern FRP/carbon boats - hence the success of the boat in the big one off handicap events.
It does? Yes one won the Bloody Mary, what, last year, but one class or another has to win it every year. They're definitely not particularly prominent in Bloody Mary results, and I can't recall them doing anything special in Grafham Grand prix or Tiger trophy either, although I haven't collected the data.
Most people who compain about handicaps reckon they are just a few percent out, yet in any fleet the span of finish results will be around 20%...

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jon711
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jon711 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:10 am

For a really unusual handicap bandit, how about an Adventurer (Or even an Adventuress!). Not sure what the handicap is, but I always seemed to do well as a youth in one!!

Jon

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jon711
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jon711 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:57 am

JimC wrote:
davidh wrote:and the Phantom is one such example, that has a small number of highly developed boats in a much larger fleet. The core boats will struggle to get anywhere near the performance of the modern FRP/carbon boats - hence the success of the boat in the big one off handicap events.
It does? Yes one won the Bloody Mary, what, last year, but one class or another has to win it every year. They're definitely not particularly prominent in Bloody Mary results, and I can't recall them doing anything special in Grafham Grand prix or Tiger trophy either, although I haven't collected the data.
Most people who compain about handicaps reckon they are just a few percent out, yet in any fleet the span of finish results will be around 20%...
Jim, I see where you are coming from (Isn't that awful modern English?). In the Blaze on open water I can sail well beyond my handicap, however as I choose to sail on restricted waters, maybe I could be accused of keeping the Blaze handicap where it is (And we are also reckoned to be handicap bandits!!). However I struggle to beat a P (No I will not use that word again, even after the watershed!), on open water or even restricted water. So maybe they are bigger bandits than me!!

At North West Norfolk Week last year I was really struggling to keep up with a P (Admittadly this guy either won or came second in the Sharpie Nationals and is no slouch), it was semi planing conditions, not perfect Blaze conditions, but I lost him down wind and gained on the up. They are the true handicap bandits. If the Blaze is widely regarded as a handicap bandit but can still not beat a P (Nearly said it there) then the P handicap must be wrong..

However, this has no relevence to Classic or Vintage Boats...

The biggest problem I have is what yardstick to put the two Oulton Raters on for Oulton Week. One is Fully carboned and sailed by an adequate sailor (I hope he won't take exception to that!!) the other is near original sailed by an exceptional sailor (I'm sure he won't take exception to that!!). At the moment the boats are given personal handicaps in club racing, depending on who is sailing them...

And Jim, we would really like to see you at Oulton.......Still not sure yet??..... gone on.... you've never lived if you've not experienced Oulton Week...... Would be a great week for either a Cherub or a Canoe!! (Good Luck!!)

Jon

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jon711
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jon711 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:06 am

davidh wrote:Jon,

That's it.... if you're going to use language like that then you've just reinforced all my negative views about them wot hail from the east.

Don't you know that children and those of a tender disposition sometimes read this site (most of the time tis them that write the comments)..... but you used the big P word, without warning and before the 9pm watershed..... shame on you.

Did Dave C put you up to it or was it all your own work?

D
David , just realisd, very slow me, I'm not from the East I just live here...

I'm a missionary sent from the North West to educate and train the Southern and Eastern heathens

(Indeed my Mother has even appeared on Hollyoaks - what a depressing claim to fame that is!!)

Jon

davidh
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:11 am

Jon,

I too sailed a Blaze (701) in a Phantom friendly environment (estuary conditions) and know exactly where you're coming from (more bad english). As I'm towards the upper weight range of the Blaze, in anything less than a good breeze I could hold the P boat upwind - but lost out time and time again as they just wriggle away downwind.

I then changed the Blaze for the P boat and found out just how good a boat this is. Mine was an old woody - but with a carbon rig. Get the weight central to lift out the flatter aft sections and with apparently little effort the boat just slips away downwind.

Intrestingly, last night I was doing some more research on the subject and found that the maximum allowed spinnaker size on a Pegasus is 180 sq ft - that is BIG! Can this sail area be made to pay......that's an interesting question.

I found a number of other handicap hopefuls - Marlin MkIII, Scorpion,Lark, Kestrel but none of these seem to have that all important extra zip that comes from an acre of sail aloft.

The Marlin MkIII looks a possibilty - a pretty boat too.

It is also interesting looking at those boats that just do not seem to make it as Handicap hopefuls! Compare the Zenith..... quite a good prospect, with the Leader, which even when well prepared and sailed doesn't seem to make the grade.

But two more possibles...for a pair of lightweights - a 470 and
for the more generous of build - a Wayfarer

But I am sure that there are many, many more

D
David H

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jon711
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jon711 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:24 am

A 470 would be a really bad idea at Oulton, as we have a twice over 470 world champion as a member. However AG should have his hands full, as Nic usually borrows a BOD for Oulton Week...

A Wayfarer may also not be a good idea, unless you like looking at Mike Macnamera's transom!!

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