The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

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Nessa
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Nessa » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:33 pm

Rupert wrote:Luckily the Phantom (especially in carbon masted bandit form) isn't a cvrda boat! And I don't think the wooden single bottomed tin rigged version is much of a bandit...
I can vouch for that! :roll:
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Rupert
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Rupert » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:30 pm

jon711 wrote:A 470 would be a really bad idea at Oulton, as we have a twice over 470 world champion as a member. However AG should have his hands full, as Nic usually borrows a BOD for Oulton Week...

A Wayfarer may also not be a good idea, unless you like looking at Mike Macnamera's transom!!
If I could keep Mike Mc's transom in sight I'd call it a good day's sailing...

As for the Peggie (plural Peggies) there have been 2 people in the cvrda who have managed to make a Peggie sail to beyond handicap. David R and Andy H are both very, very good sailors with many hours spent in the boat. Keith R (also a good sailor, but maybe (sorry Keith) not quite as fast as David) makes the Peggie go pretty much to handicap, and comes out near or on top of the pile, but not by silly margins. His boat isn't exactly state of the art, mind, even by 1965 standards...) Other than that, there have been many competent sailors in them over the years, and no one else (as far as I can remember) has troubled the leaderboard. The most decorated Peggie of all is currently for sale, and probebly pretty good value for the kit you get.
Maybe, Mr H, you should find out if you can fill David Rollinson's wetsuit boots?
Rupert

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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:39 pm

Rupert,

I've been with Ian Ridge this pm, talking and discussing Merlins. Ian thinks that we are all way off beam, suggesting that the ultimate handicap bandit is an International Moth from the early 1980s (he used to have 3829 from 1982)

What handicap would that sail off now - the same as the skol?

If ever there is a class where sailing ability is the over riding feature, it is probably the moth!

But again - like the peggie, a devastatingly quick boat in the right conditions. Would need to loose 15Kgs or more to sail one so it's back to the peggie methinks

D
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Pat
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Pat » Fri Dec 04, 2009 9:00 pm

The BOD is a potential bandit with that great sail area - I have strong memories of getting stuck in their windshadow. But it's a lot of boat to get moving (over 600 kilos) and it will be interesting to see how it performs inland.

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Ancient Geek
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Ancient Geek » Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:07 pm

I think we are thinking different BOD's I mean a Broads One Design not a Brightlingsea One Design rather lower aspect sail plan though just as thoroughbred.
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jon711
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jon711 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 3:26 am

Also...
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Not quite a Brightlinsea One Design, but pretty in thier own right. Not a dinghy by any means, but it needs dinghy skill to sail one properly. I have crewed Tim Barrett (Rupert , may know him as fellow FF sailors) Nick Truman (Merlin Builder), Stuart Rix (EX ISO, Wayfarer and Enterprise top ten sailor!) Sir Tim Coleman (When I crewed him, I was totally ignorant that he still held the world speed sailing record, with Crossbow!!), and also various other people in the National (and International) Sailing World.

Nic Asher 470 World chammp x 2 also tries to borrow a BOD for Oulton Week, so AG may struggle to win!!

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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Ancient Geek » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:38 am

Brand new Danish built boat though! Hull is in Denmark ready for keel, deck and ridder.
Nick takes a lot of beating.
The 100 Gold guineas that is in Hoares Bank remains unclaimed it is for anyone who can sink one, and boy have people tried over the years.
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Pat » Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:10 pm

Not a BOD but a BOD and just as much of a handful from the look of it!

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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jon711 » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:43 pm

Still not too sure sure on the 100 guineas pot... I seem to recall that a BOD was sunk at sea this year, just off Yarmouth Roads. Don't think they have found it yet!!!

I beleive, (although, I may be wrong!), that the 100 guineas pot was for the first capsize and sinking...... hence the boat sunk off Yarmouth was not eligable...

Jon

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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Ancient Geek » Sat Dec 05, 2009 9:32 pm

A tupperware one presumably?
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Sun Dec 06, 2009 12:52 pm

All,

Out of interest, the following may well provide some food for thought. It is from Ian Ridge, who in addition to being one of the most innovative dinghy builders in his time, was a top class helm in Moths, Nat12, 14s and the occasional Merlin (he made my off one go faster than it has ever been before. But Ian's heartland is the Moth - he and close friend Clive Everest may well have been responsible for the trend to super narrow boats when they salvaged a pair of Unicorn hulls, cut them to 11ft, stuck in a transom and stepped a moth rig. My - did they do some swimming at first but then they cracked it and the rest, as they say, is history.

Read on for a report from the Moth Assoc......

PY Numbers for International Moths Competing in Handicap Races


Over the last twenty five years the International Moth has developed from a boat that in 1980 was racing on level terms with an Enterprise to a narrow, ultra lightweight skiff almost as fast as a Contender on handicap. Good Moth sailors in modern boats have no difficulty sometimes beating Fireballs and similar boats on the water. It is discouraging for the owner of, for instance, a Magnum 8 to be expected to race in a club fleet off the same handicap as the latest design of modern Moth. Back in 1988 when the Magnum 8 was the fastest design of Moth it had a Portsmouth Yardstick correctly handicapping it just a little faster than a Laser. The RYA list of PY numbers carries a footnote that reads ‘with Development classes where the Portsmouth Number is likely to vary depending on the age and design of the boats, clubs should consider adjusting the Number where it does not reflect the performance of a particular boat (excluding crew skill factor)’. This adjustment does not always take place because the Moth sailor in an old design of boat cannot provide any evidence of what the handicap PY Number of his or her boat was at the time it was designed. A complicating factor is the change in 1996 to PY numbers based on 1000 rather than 100, with no obvious way of converting from old numbers to new. This statement by the IMCA(UK) aims to provide an authoritative set of recommendations for the PY number to use with older boats, plus some argument to back up the proposed Numbers.



Throughout the 1980s the Magnum designs of Moth were the all-conquering, state of the art boats at that time. Probably few Magnum 3 or 4 Moths are still being raced, but in 1982 their PY was the same as an Enterprise and an OK. Today these boats have PYs of 1116 or recently, 1111 in the case of the OK. It would thus be reasonable to give a Magnum 3 a PY of 1115. By 1985 the Magnum 5 had become a slightly faster boat than the Magnum 3 and its handicap was now the same as a Wayfarer, 1099 today. The development of the Magnum 8 was a major step forward and the Moth moved from being slower than a Laser to somewhat faster, about the speed of a Scorpion, nearly that of a Phantom and marginally faster than a Lark or an Albacore. Compared with the PY Numbers for these boats it suggests a PY of about 1060 for a Magnum 8. By the early 1990s Moth development had taken a quantum leap forward with the first generation of significantly narrower boats and the advent of carbon masts. Moths such as the Magnum 9, Pearce 6, Blitz and early Axeman designes proved to be comparable in speed to the Tasar, the Laser11, and the Merlin Rocket, all of which have current, PY Numbers between 1021 and 1024. However in 1992 the Kestrel and the Marauder raced off the same handicap though they now have numbers between 1034 and 1042. Hence this generation of Moth might be handicapped fairly with a Number set at 1020, assuming they now have modern T foils, not available when these boats first hit the water. Finally, by 1995 the modern generation of narrow ultra lightweight skiff Moths with T foil rudders had begun to establish themselves as the fastest designs such as the Skippy1, the Magnum 9.9, the Axeman 6 and 7 or even more recently, the world beating, Australian Hungry Tiger. It is these Moths for which their current PY Number of 1000 is appropriate. Hence in Summary the following recommendations can be made:



PY 1000
Hungry Tiger, Axeman 6 and 7, Skippy 1,2 and 3, Magnum 9.9 plus any other designs first built after 1995.



PY 1020
Magnum 9 and 9.5, Axeman 2 to5, Pearce 6, Blitz 2 to 3, Australian Axeman and equivalent designs first built between 1989 and 1995 such as the Ghoul 3.

PY 1060
Magnum 8, Axeman 1, Blitz1, Ghoul 1 and 2, and Gentleman Jim


PY 1100
Magnum 5 and 6

PY 1115
Magnum 3 and 4 and any other designs of Moth still racing built in the early 1980s or before.

Is the Moth the Ultimate Handicap Bandit? Well, I can think of no other boat where helm skill plays such and overriding factor. I can get most boats around a course but even if I were to loose 10kgs - I doubt that I'd manage anything other than a british Moth (itself a damn good boat in the right hands....Rupert!!)

D
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by jpa_wfsc » Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:37 pm

It certainly shows how a development rules boat - develops.!! 1115 to 1000 - its a different world, with more or less the same rules. What number should our '72 Skoll be sailed against then?
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by davidh » Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:37 pm

John,

I did ask about the skol - sorry - you do not get any more than 1115!

But even at that, with a lightweight helm on board, they should fly

David
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by alan williams » Sun Dec 06, 2009 8:09 pm

Hi David
Clive Everest etc only reinvented the narrow moth . Shaun Cox in the early Seventies won the Nationals and I believe the Europeans sailing a very narrow design called a Demon which was considered so extreme as to be unsailable and he was the only one to master the beast . Shauns was also responsible for a major rule change in the Class Rules as he turned up and won at another event with a self designed windsufer with a Moth Rigg that conformed to the rules then in place. The rules were then changed to ensure that the rig could not be supported by the helmsperson.

Shaun sailed Demon in the Port of Plymouth Regatta and I can witness that he was beating a New Reg White Tornado sailed by an experienced Tornado helm and John Allani sailing a Condor not only on a boat to boat basis but by a considerable margin in real time and on handicap he was out of sight. I was sailing a Hornet and he nearly lapped the Hornets on several days even though we started nearly 40 minutes in front of the Handicap fleet.
Cheers Al
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Re: The Ultimate Handicap Bandit

Post by Rupert » Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:41 pm

jpa_wfsc wrote:It certainly shows how a development rules boat - develops.!! 1115 to 1000 - its a different world, with more or less the same rules. What number should our '72 Skoll be sailed against then?
It was at 100 at the time, which you then multiply by 1.22 and 9.6 to give 1171, which is how I got the one we use at WSC. I'm far from convinced by this handicap, but that is due to the old sail, and if you could find a narrow topped more modern sail, the boat would fly.
Rupert

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