A question about the racing rules

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Nigel
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A question about the racing rules

Post by Nigel » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:21 pm

Hi all,

I am sure this never happens at your respective clubs (nor mine) but.......

If someone were to round a mark the wrong way, what do they need to do to rectify it?

Do they just round it the right way or do they have to round it the right way to "untangle the imaginary string" then re-round it the right way again to officially round it?

My inclination is for the latter but the rules write ups I have looked at do not seem to specifically address such incompetence (btw it wasn't me :) )

corkman
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by corkman » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:08 pm

Nigel, your latter assumption is correct. You must first unwind yourself and then go around the mark the correct way. Your "piece of string" analogy is correct.

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roger
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by roger » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:32 pm

Nigel,

It happens more often than you would think. Yes you have to unwind first and then round the mark.
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davidh
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by davidh » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:53 pm

I need to get my big case file out on this -for somewhere I recall a ruling that you have to approach the mark from the direct of the last mark - not the next one.

BUT... before making any assumptions - bear this in mind.

The mark to be rounded is Mark 1 (windward Mark), to be left to Port. A boat approaches and passes the mark on the starboard side, then bears away onto a course that would take her back towards the previous mark. She then gybes around, hardens up and sails back to the mark, which she then passes correctly with the mark to Port. Does she (a) then sail her proper course to the next mark or (b) reround the mark and pass it to port a 2nd time? - or is the rounding of the mark sufficient to 'unwind the string'??

Answers on a postcard to
ISAF International Jury Office.... Town Quay, southampton, where they might just have someone who understands the question!

D
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Nigel
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Nigel » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:46 am

My piece of string says "b" (but it is a bit damp) or having re-read it, is it "a"?.

I assume this relates to some previous incident/appeal (that you may have been involved in) and is not just a random question. Please spill the beans!

Would a viral campaign to all post pieces of string to Town Quay be in order? :twisted:

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Ed
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Ed » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:40 am

surely 'B'

how ever far you sailed back towards the previous mark, when you returned, you would only unwind the string, but never actually round the mark.

But very happy to take advice from those with a better grip of rules.

It took me ages to come to terms with the basic concept that you could start (or approach) in front of the line and clear yourself simply by dipping back under the line and then going.

Much prefer SIs that insist you have to return around the line.....seems so much more logical.

cheers

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Nigel
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Nigel » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:51 am

Ed wrote:Much prefer SIs that insist you have to return around the line.....seems so much more logical.
Unless you have each end of the line on opposite banks of the river as we do at Shirehampton. Having to go round the end would be a very good spectator sport :D

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by davidh » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:57 am

Ed,

when I'm doing PRO at events I used to like the 'Code flag India' start (Round the ends rule applies). What I would do is put flag V o on a stick, have a loud whistle - then if anyone was over the line in that last minute they'd get a blast, I'd point at them with the flagstick and they could redeem themselves.

Sadly, this practice - that was taught as part of the Race Management programme until quite recently, is now frowned upon. You get one start under the P, then move to Black Flag.

Ah well, never mind, it keeps one busy.............

D
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Ed
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Ed » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:20 am

Nigel,

you are of course right! hard to avoid on a river!

But remind me....

Do the boats above the line have any different 'rights' at any stage of the start. In other words, do they have to avoid boats behind the line?

Of course in most cases, if the line is set across the wind, then any boat above the line is most likely to be obliged to any boat below it by the normal race rules.....but in a river, I can see that you could have a situation where the start line was not across the wind and you could have someone in front of the line, returning on starboard with rights over someone starting legitimately on port behind the line. Which could be pretty confusing??

Not planning a return to UTSC any time in the near future.....but just a thought!

eib
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Ed
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Ed » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:31 am

David,

I sympathise!

I hate being 'frowned upon'.....must be something from my youth. I find these days there seem to be more and more people/organisations/groups/associations/work/family that wish to 'frown upon' me in an every increasing number of ways in ever more areas of my life.

I do hate the continual attempt these days to try and 'standardise' everything.

I have always enjoyed (however frustrating it might be) how racing has in the past been run by many clubs and race officers all of whom did things slightly differently, with varying 'local rules'. It was part of the fun. And I admit to many times being caught out by my simply not reading the damn SIs properly.

You get my total support to keep doing it just the way you (and your fleet) want it.
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Rupert
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Rupert » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:44 am

Ed, any boat in any situation who was over the line at the start looses rights to any boat starting properly. Presumebly, if 2 boats are over, the rules apply as normal to those 2 boats?
Rupert

davidh
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by davidh » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:50 am

Ed,

to say anymore I'd have to write under an alias! But you know the situation we face at netley. The prevailing wind is onshore, we have a hard 'boundary' of the deep water shipping channel, then the tidal flows, no small factor in springs, tend to be along the length of the line'.

The Code Flag India technique has stood me in good stead for years and as I said, until not very long ago was the supposed mark of a good PRO. Moreover, it gave the competitors a chance to get out of the ocs problem that was often a case of inland sailors not used to the strength of the tide.

These days however conformity is the name of the game - be it in Race management, Class selection, rig setting..... a well known contributor to this very forum complained at the dinghy show that we are breeding a generation of cloned sailors - well, the same fate awaits the Race team too!

D
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Michael Brigg
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:25 am

Ed wrote: I hate being 'frowned upon'.....must be something from my youth. I find these days there seem to be more and more people/organisations/groups/associations/work/family that wish to 'frown upon' me in an every increasing number of ways in ever more areas of my life.

I do hate the continual attempt these days to try and 'standardise' everything.

I have always enjoyed (however frustrating it might be) how racing has in the past been run by many clubs and race officers all of whom did things slightly differently, with varying 'local rules'. It was part of the fun. And I admit to many times being caught out by my simply not reading the damn SIs properly.
I do recall Ed was quite often in trouble at school!

Standardisation, and departure from it gives people the opportunity to complain. Then Sue. However legal firms need to stay alive, so while boom time brings conveyancing and contracts, recession brings divorce and litigation.

So I blame the lawyers. Oh, and the politicians too. AND the Daily Mail.

I seem to be constantly under the cosh of disapproval as well. I'm probably set to get alot more when Fiona discovers that while she was away "a big boy put a canoe in my front garden and ran away!"

But AG has pointed out to me the fact that the most rabid disapprover of all, Miss Malaprop herself said "Every man should have a hobby."

So I guess thats leaves me in the clear. :lol: :lol:
Michael Brigg

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by davidh » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:31 am

Michael,

I think you should bring Tormentor (should that be 'Torment Her??, as in 'her indoors) to the Metre shed on the Hamble where she can sit besides Jester - AUS 278 and then the Smokers. Think of the conversations that could be had whilst mixing up copious quantities of 320 epoxy. There is already 80 and 120 grit on hand... not to mention a router and maybe even a supply of walnut shells.

D
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by davidh » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:36 pm

Ed,

You have just highlighted one of the BIG issues with the RYA Race Management Training system. A big chunk of this is (rightly) focused on setting the start line and how to use bias to help get the fleet away (an issue in tidal conditions when the current flow is along the line in the direction of the pin!). Fine and all very well - except that in a big % of UK clubs, the line is fixed. You have a range of situations - Whitefriars is a good example, where they can at least put a bouy out to swing the line a bit. Then just last week I was at a club where the line was between two fixed points -that was the line, you could have the fleet crossing one way or another but that was the limit of choice.

In these conditions, all the usual considerations for starting tend to get forgotten in the melee that will form at one end of the line, yet I doubt if 1 start in 100n will see anyone doing turns, despite the bumping and barging that will be there.

There is a new RYA club race officer sylabus about to be launched, I await this with some anticipation to see if they have addressed this issue. My experience has show that if you go and talk to clubs with fixed lines about 5' of port bias in a short time you'll have lost their attention.

We can but wait and see!

D
David H

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