A question about the racing rules

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by admin » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:52 pm

Rupert wrote:When we first started going to Roadford with the cvrda, we used lots of marks and most of the lake. The one I ran I used as much of the lake as I could, given that the water level was way down. Yet the last visit saw us using just the middle of the lake. Not progress, really - interesting that Ed feels it is because of following procedure slavishly. I assume Clywedog has no such worries?!
slightly disappointed about this, the last CVRDA event was combined with the Goodacre, hence the use of of the laid course. We get grief if we use the lake marks, we get grief if we don't. this has nothing to do with 'following procedure slavishly' just the expectation that for a Nationals that a decent course was required. Perhaps some feedback at the time would have been useful as we'd know for the next time.

We tend to use the lake marks for club racing and can easily do so on the May bank holiday event, and have starts from the shed. However I wonder how many complaints we'll get about not having a decent beat, a very biased start line etc, though I'd imagine that complaints about the beat will come from the Finns.

It's not true to say that the racing at Roadford is by the RYA book. The only times the extra race bouys come out is for open meetings where there is an expectation that standard W/L or Tri-Saus-Tri courses are used.

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by alan williams » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:20 pm

Hi
Must support Neil. We do have various courses using the set bouys in the Lake. However most clubs will use a Triangular of Windard -lee ward for Asymetrics for Open meetings and Championships. It's just that the CVRDA is more relaxed in it's approach to meetings. Once Meetings are combined then I feel that we should go with a standard format, unless all classes and individuals sailing agree to home grown course with biased lines, where local knowledge has a definate advantage.
Cheers Al

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by roger » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:59 pm

admin wrote:
Rupert wrote:When we first started going to Roadford with the cvrda, we used lots of marks and most of the lake. The one I ran I used as much of the lake as I could, given that the water level was way down. Yet the last visit saw us using just the middle of the lake. Not progress, really - interesting that Ed feels it is because of following procedure slavishly. I assume Clywedog has no such worries?!
slightly disappointed about this, the last CVRDA event was combined with the Goodacre, hence the use of of the laid course. We get grief if we use the lake marks, we get grief if we don't. this has nothing to do with 'following procedure slavishly' just the expectation that for a Nationals that a decent course was required. Perhaps some feedback at the time would have been useful as we'd know for the next time.

We tend to use the lake marks for club racing and can easily do so on the May bank holiday event, and have starts from the shed. However I wonder how many complaints we'll get about not having a decent beat, a very biased start line etc, though I'd imagine that complaints about the beat will come from the Finns.

It's not true to say that the racing at Roadford is by the RYA book. The only times the extra race bouys come out is for open meetings where there is an expectation that standard W/L or Tri-Saus-Tri courses are used.
I was very happy with the courses at Roadford and I think it worked well with the Goodacre fleet. I dont think anyone was complaining. My only problem all weekend was that I broke the spreaders on Shoestring and couldnt continue sailing :(

Oh and the weather was sh*t :D but not as bad as Clwedog the year before.
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Ed
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Ed » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:26 pm

OK....apologies all round!

I can feel that I am being 'frowned upon' again.... :oops:

Sorry, I wasn't really making any comment about racing at Roadord in the last 5 years or so or anybody on the present committee.....last few years it has been just fine. I had no problem at all with the course last year at all. (OK, I could of done with a few more fetches, but hey, that's sailing on a lake for you).

It all depends upon the wind direction.....we have had times in the distant past when with the wind running across the lake, we have had olympic courses set in the middle of the lake (when it was low anyway) and had beats that were little more than 200 yards long.....which just seemed a pity when the lake was a couple of miles long. All for the sake of doing it 'by the book'....and the presumption that people only wanted to race triangle/sausage/triangles.

I gave feedback many times to the committee of those days, hardly any of which are currently even in the club, (its all a long time ago now - I am talking 98-01?) and believe it or not....this was one of the original aims of the first events at Roadford - to return to the club buoys, which had been used for the first few years of the club's existence, but then dropped when we were told by visiting coaches, that we shouldn't be using the club buoys, but only a proper set course. It was also one of the reasons originally for not wanting to share the course with other modern classes, so we didn't feel that we had to do these kind of standardised courses.

My point was simply that in the late 90s-early00s we had a lot of RYA courses run at the club and the club-organisers at the time, (mostly without too much experience of other clubs) not surprisingly took the lead for race organisation directly from the RYA coaches.....and it used to feel like their advice was good for 'open's or 'nats' but inappropriate for our club racing. It took a long time for some of us to point out that we didn't 'have' to stick to their way of doing it, we could work it out for ourselves......which I am more than happy to say we now do!

But as Alan says....we are pretty easy going, it wasn't a big thing.....we will run with what most want. I don't really complain about courses as a rule. I am just really glad that someone is running the racing for me and I don't have to do it myself.

But, if anyone asks me for my preferred way of setting a course.....it is simple to do at Roadford and appears to be what most clubs with laid buoys do anyway. I am not saying this is the 'right' way! I doubt that I would pass any (let along a RYA) race officers course!!

You go out into the sailing area and see where the wind is coming from, you find the buoy with the longest stretch of water running straight down wind from it. You then go as far down this line as you can to the other side of the lake and drop a dan-buoy and lay the committee boat with the fairest line you can. You don't have to have biased lines to race on club buoys - that is just silly.

You then find two club buoys that provide a decent reach, around 90-120deg. If one of those buoys is after the windward (which the original design or layout of buoys means they often are), you can have a triangle, if not, then you join them up (from the windward to the start of reach) and have some kind of box, P or figure8 or whatever. You should be able to also make sure that there is some point that gives a decent run also. but the reach should be at least as long as the run, preferably longer.

The problems come from using a fixed start line. This is different to using set buoys, with a fixed line, you can so easily end up with a box, that lies point to point up and down the wind, which is to all intensive purposes just a windward/leeward, with one tack going up wind and one gybe coming back. I was never suggesting that.

Anyway, there you go, I really don't profess to know anything about setting courses or race management and I bow deaply to those on the forum that do....and thank you for the time you took to gain that knowledge, whilst I was racing (or more likely swimming).

I will now go sit in the corner again.

eib


ps.....and if anyone even mentions courses to me on any day that I am not OOD.....don't expect an opinion!
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by PeterV » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:43 pm

The courses at Roadford were fine both times as far as I was concerned. However a course round the lake was much better than the triangle course for the wooden mast rig. A long windward leg places a premium on windward performance and driving the boat hard. This doesn't suit the wooden rig, and I guess the same applies to many of the other older rigs. If we're really racing I'd use the alloy mast, as there doesn't seem much point putting myself at a significant disadvantage, particulalry in a fleet of Finns, but if the racing is more of a competiticve cruise around the lake then I'd happily use the wooden rig more.
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Pat » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:57 pm

Having learned with the standardised 5-4-1-Go at Shearwater I vastly prefer it to other starts. At Cheddar we do multiple starts at three minute intervals 6-3-go and hope you can identify your own class flag - ours is M for mix-up :)
The interesting part is that they have changed from club marks courses to a choice of three laid standard courses - sausage-triangle, trapeziod and cloverleaf and tried it for a while and then had a meeting recently to discuss it. The result was that asymmetric sailors wanted windward-leeward and the rest wanted variety, so the next stage is something like round the cans in the morning and laid courses in the afternoon.
Starting from the committee boat was also a popular move as the line starts apparently were frequently not to windward.
Our feeling after the meeting was the classic "You can't please everyone." It's the same at Roadford - give us a variety of courses and you'll please most of us. We only sailed on the Monday but last year was fine.

I did the race officer exam last year and we were taught that the V flag could be used but it must be in the SI's. I haven't yet seen it done but this post's been useful to dig out my notes again as I'm assisting with an Ent open on Saturday.

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Rupert » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:09 pm

I did mention it at the time, Neil, and basically was made to feel like I was a whinger, so I gave up. The courses for Sunday and Monday were bigger than the Saturday course for the Goodacre, so we can be thankful for that, at least. I can't see why a course using club marks should have any worse beats than a triangle, though the good beat may be elsewhere on the lake to the start line if the wind direction dictates.

I just can't see the point of having all that lovely water, with the possiblilities that throws up, and then setting a beat and a long almost run and a short hop across the lake.

I shall be playing host to various 7 and 8 year olds that weekend for Pip's birthday, though, so you needn't worry about setting courses for me this time round...
Rupert

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Nigel » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:31 pm

Oh dear!

my question about a damp piece of imaginary string seems to have opened far more vents than I intended or expected.

I will save the question about who has right of way when you loop the loop round a mark for another day as we may end up arguing about the forthcoming election :roll:

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by jon711 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:43 pm

Nigel wrote:Oh dear!

my question about a damp piece of imaginary string seems to have opened far more vents than I intended or expected.

I will save the question about who has right of way when you loop the loop round a mark for another day as we may end up arguing about the forthcoming election :roll:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Pat » Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:05 pm

Some bedtime reading for you Nigel. Guaranteed to cure insomnia :D

Check case 90 here
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ ... [8229].pdf

and

case 2004/4 here
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDoc ... 9-2012.pdf

Bother. Just realised I got so sidetracked here we're now got mashed potatoes not saute!
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:57 pm

There is room for both schools here. I feel like the Rabbi, (from "Fiddler on the Roof," one of my favourites,) who when asked what should be done to resolve a heated dispute says simply "Lets...all sit down."

I like short courses sometimes, A race that is several short windward/leeward laps tests the boat handling and tactical positioning skills. In heavy weather the beats dont get so tiring and boats with better athleticism may benefit from frequent frenetic hoists gybes and the like. The fleet is more likely to be close together so anticipation of several other boats rather than just one or two will challenge the helms capability.. In light wind there is more going on to break up the monotomy of the drift.

I like long legged couses. Especially in heavy weather these test your stamina and endurance on the beat and give suficient length to drink in (for some litterally) the exilaration of a long screaming gnarly reach and plenty of fearful anticipation of the gybe your going to have to do. In light weather patience and concentration are tested. Sheer boat speed and time spent tuning and the skill to set your boats best settings for the conditins is likely to bring benefits.

I like going round the cans. Reading and understanding race instructions is a skill. You'll never win Cowes week without it. (And in 30yrs of doing that regatta I am still finding out new depths to the SI's) Long downwind legs can incorporate several gypes for the faint hearted and a variety of port and starboard roundings and differing angles of wind and tide will test navigation skills. I must say I thought Roadford last Nationals might have benefited from some zig-zags on the down wind legs, especially as the wind wasnt too challenging, and it feels a bit more of a yot if youv'e had the boat pull its skirts up for more than a minute or two.

Our sport should a test of all these things. I'm all for plumb start lines but that removes a skill of working out the bias and tide. What is really needed is variety. I'm disappointed if an open meeting has just 3 races round an Identical course. There are practicalities obviously but as often as not it's really about being bothered.

I was for example disappointed at last years Firefly nationals that in ideal reaching conditions we had trapezoid courses all week with tiny reaches. It made for a week of winward leeward racing.

And Rupert, I thought you said you get lost is the leg is more than 200m! :lol:

However, the bottom line in any sport is that you have to "play the referee." and the same goes for Race Officers. Getting your PRO to give the right course is a skill also.

Is there not a clause in the course or handbook that advises the PRO to discuss the course (where possible) with the class captain who is more likely to know the capabilities and preferences of the fleet? This is surely what should be receiving more attention.
Michael Brigg

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Rupert » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:17 am

Funny you should say that, Michael, I got lost at Whitefriars on Sunday...there was an eps capsized, and in tacking to leave plenty of space, I completely forgot to go round the mark the other side of it...oh, well, I retired and went for a play to improve my boathandling.

As for finding marks on the sea, lets just say it is just as well there was no chance of me being near the front in a race!
Rupert

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Ancient Geek » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:25 am

Despite general agreement with Michel last night over many subjects and a couple of pints, I just cannot get this modern mania for short courses - surely in a vain attempt to make our sport televisual or spectator worthy - it puts far too much biase on the start and messing everybody else day up becomes as vital as getting on and sailing quickly - restrict the short course stuff to team racing at venues like West Kirby, like Michael I would like to see a return to more varied courses and certainly the older olympic courses with a nice long first beat reaches and runs and finishing on a beat, and this mania for tweaking the course as we go along (Bcause they can?) is largely uneccesary unless it' a massive shift.
Simples.

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