A question about the racing rules

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Ed
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Ed » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:58 pm

I think this is all evidence of the thin edge of the wedge....and we are all being pulled towards one amorphous lump of standardisation.....which I think is a great pity.

I am not a big fan of the RYA in this respect.

Roadford Lake Sailing Club is a very new club (the lake was only filled in the 90s) and after a few years, the lake started to be heavily used by visiting RYA coaches/trainers/race officers.

With such a 'young' club, for many of the committee, this was the first club they had ever raced at and they looked entirely to the visiting RYA people to establish the methodology for how to run their racing.

This meant that everything had to be done exactly by the RYA book. Instead of using the whole lake, we had to always race Olympic triangle/sausage/triangles in the middle of the lake (on an area smaller than Sheerwater). We wern't allowed any starboard roundings etc etc. Every time there was a new change to the RYA 'recommendation' we had to change too....whether it was good for our racing or not.

There were only a few of us saying: "Look, just because the RYA does it that way, doesn't mean that we have to do it that way too....we can do what suits us, our boats and our water".

I think this is very like the clubs that say "We stick to the published PY Nos - we never adjust them"....even when they simply make no sense at all on the local water.

On an allied point....

I have often wondered why we (CVRDA) don't also specify to Race organisers our own start sequence. We already provide the challenge (it would appear!) of our own PY system....so what about returning to a more typical 1960s start system?

I guess that would be 3 and 3.....with the old flags too.

Ha! I would love it!

(I'd muck it up of course.....but no difference there...at least I would have a reason :-)

eib
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by roger » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:22 pm

Surely Ed, A 1960s start would be 10 .....5....go None of these warnings at 1 minute. Now if you follow that logic we will be retireing after touching the mark and /or after infringing another boat. I think like the advent of decent protective clothing there are some changes which we should continue to adopt.

I was reading a book a while back cant remember who by..... It tells the story from the authors point of view when being lapped by a much faster and better known sailor they passed port starboard (the author on starboard) the other boat passed in front and hailed the author asking if he had had to change course ? Only a little came the reply. The lead boat raised his had and retired. An example of sportsmanship which I would applaud but surely a couple of turns would be better for all.
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Ancient Geek » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:25 pm

I have to agree with ED unless you are an Oympic Squad member it is hard to see what they do for anyone.
The RYA badly needs to broaden its appeal 100,000 members is laughably small for a sport like sailing it needs to be less proscriptive but then like MP's you have to question the motives.
I hasten to add there are lots of good people doing good jobs, largely on the fringe who really do not want to take on a battle, lets hope a new CEO will mean less bullying.
Simples.

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by davidh » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:26 pm

Ed,

FYI.....(going to be VERY careful how I say this)

Okay, later this year there will be a major get together for a long established class, a well known 'go anywhere, do anything' sort of boat (and yes, one that an early number would be cvrda legal).

They had planned to hold a World Championship but are now being advised that due to some procedural issues, they can no longer use the term 'World Championship'. Were they to stick two fingers up and do so anyway, then sanctions could be applied. The answer I believe will be in just calling the event 'The Worlds'... thus getting around most of the issues.

Of course there are rights and wrongs on both sides...BUT..... some may have seen the stance taken as heavy handed.

There is an interesting aside to this: When organising World Championships, the biggest single line on teh expense sheet is for International Jurors. I was shocked to hear that at a recent event the 5 members of the Jury decided that they would rotate so that each had a day off in the week. Another brought a small child to the event, then tried to dump the cost of a baby sitting service on the host club so that the juror could attend an evening bash.

With the global credit crunch biting deep, numbers are down, costs are up, yet ISAF keeps it's requirements pretty much the same. But without the requisite Jury, the even is not a Championships and you're back to the situation above. QED!

D
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Ancient Geek » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:32 pm

We need badly to get back to retire or protest it will improve boat handling, manners and a lot of other aspects of our sport.
10 - 5 go is also much better.
And marks to Starboard cleans up the first mark no end you simply need to do what we do in Denmark and say after 5 boat lengths the Starboard boat no longer has right of way so if approaching the first mark on Port you just overstand a bit if needs be.
Simples
Simples.

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Rupert » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:31 pm

When we first started going to Roadford with the cvrda, we used lots of marks and most of the lake. The one I ran I used as much of the lake as I could, given that the water level was way down. Yet the last visit saw us using just the middle of the lake. Not progress, really - interesting that Ed feels it is becuase of following procedure slavishly. I assume Clywedog has no such worries?!
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by jon711 » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:00 pm

Ed wrote: I have often wondered why we (CVRDA) don't also specify to Race organisers our own start sequence. We already provide the challenge (it would appear!) of our own PY system....so what about returning to a more typical 1960s start system?

I guess that would be 3 and 3.....with the old flags too.

Ha! I would love it!

(I'd muck it up of course.....but no difference there...at least I would have a reason :-)

eib
Oulton Week is on 6 ,3 starts, see we already do things that you want!!!
davidh wrote: They had planned to hold a World Championship but are now being advised that due to some procedural issues, they can no longer use the term 'World Championship'. Were they to stick two fingers up and do so anyway, then sanctions could be applied. The answer I believe will be in just calling the event 'The Worlds'... thus getting around most of the issues.
Yet at Oulton we have the famous "Waveney Worlds" for the local Waveney OD Half Decker, never heard of any complaints from ISAF of this fleet using the term (and there are only 34 built so far, all based (now) on the Broads)!!

Jon

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Nigel » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:08 pm

Come and sail at Shirehampton.

The line can be moved. We have at least two different lamposts on Pill Promenade that we can aim the transit at. We do not do triangles or sausages too much - work down the river keeping out of the tide then rush back up getting a free ride. A course that requires crossing the current is generally popular. The buoy positions are almost incidental until nearly upon them. Often we do one or two big laps followed by smaller laps until the time runs out and there is always the chance to meet a friend coming the other way whilst rounding the mark.

Add to this the occasional Gin Palace determined to pass the racing dinghies port to port regardless of where the marks are.

Do we modify PYs? Sort of. We do not have a big enough data pool to do it statistically so we have avoided that as it would in effect create personal handicaps. We have though implemented a rule this season that means if a boat can have more than one PY (e.g. different rigs), the helm must declare the fastest configuration he/she will use that season and that PY is then applied even when a slower configuration is used. The logic is that if someone chooses to use a smaller sail on a particular day, they are doing so because it is there judgement that that will give them the best reult on the day. To also give them a PY advantage seems unfair.

Do we get protests? None that I can recall. Do we take much notice of ISAF or the RYA? Of course not. What do we get for the money we pay them? I cannot think of anything.

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by davidh » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:18 pm

Jon,

Sshhhhhh..... you never know who is listening!

The answer is all in the wording! You can have the splodge worlds, but NOT the Splodge World Championships, or at least, not without conformity to a number of preconditions that woul dhave to be agreed with ISAF.

The devil, as always, is in the detail.

D
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by roger » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:41 pm

and all this started with a peice of(damp) string
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:56 pm

Michael Brigg wrote:
Ed wrote: I hate being 'frowned upon'.....must be something from my youth. I find these days there seem to be more and more people/organisations/groups/associations/work/family that wish to 'frown upon' me in an every increasing number of ways in ever more areas of my life.

I do hate the continual attempt these days to try and 'standardise' everything.

I have always enjoyed (however frustrating it might be) how racing has in the past been run by many clubs and race officers all of whom did things slightly differently, with varying 'local rules'. It was part of the fun. And I admit to many times being caught out by my simply not reading the damn SIs properly.
I do recall Ed was quite often in trouble at school!

Standardisation, and departure from it gives people the opportunity to complain. Then Sue. However legal firms need to stay alive, so while boom time brings conveyancing and contracts, recession brings divorce and litigation.

So I blame the lawyers. Oh, and the politicians too. AND the Daily Mail.

I seem to be constantly under the cosh of disapproval as well. I'm probably set to get alot more when Fiona discovers that while she was away "a big boy put a canoe in my front garden and ran away!"

But AG has pointed out to me the fact that the most rabid disapprover of all, Miss Malaprop herself said "Every man should have a hobby."

So I guess thats leaves me in the clear. :lol: :lol:
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:05 pm

Michael Brigg wrote:
Ed wrote:
I seem to be constantly under the cosh of disapproval as well. I'm probably set to get alot more when Fiona discovers that while she was away "a big boy put a canoe in my front garden and ran away!"

But AG has pointed out to me the fact that the most rabid disapprover of all, Miss Malaprop herself said "Every man should have a hobby."

So I guess thats leaves me in the clear. :lol: :lol:
AG I should say has been swift to admonish me! :oops: :oops: Even the most auditorially challenged amongst us would find it difficult to regard "Malaprop" to be an acyrological substitution (malapropism) for "Lady Bracknell!"
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Ed
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Ed » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:27 pm

ere..... i never wrote that!

:-)

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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:43 pm

No you didn't, I just made a mess up with the "quote " system and got it confused by editing it! Go back a page to see the post I refer to. :oops: (again)

I seem to be hitting alot of marks today and tying myself up in knots. I think the rules state I should retire from this string. :?

There, thats got us back on topic! :lol:
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Re: A question about the racing rules

Post by alan williams » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:48 pm

Hi
As someone who has driven International jurys around European and World Champ courses. I must say that in the main they were nice people the only pain in the rear end was you guessed it the RYA chap who was some one I have never heard of. They seemed to have a rota for who was on the Rib and who was site seeing or shopping. Small children were brought along and bouancy aids had to be found for them (child minding refused to be carried out by Shona and the other members wives), they also had a rota for who sat on any protest committees. Dave is right the biggest expense was their expensives plus the Rib we had to charter for the week, as ours wasn't big enough, fast enough or comfortable enough for them. I also feel that the RYA training method has put far more people off sailing than it has recruited. There is also the point that they donot recognise any other qualifications a part from their own. A friend of mine is Captain of Tankers for the BP Fleet. ie. he is a Captain in charge of all the other fleet captains and has vast experience and Very High marine qualifications. He had to do the RYA Power boat level 2 Course as the RYA has convinced insurance companies that this should be the minimum recognised quilification to drive a rescue boat. He is Board of Trade Qualified from Ribs to 250,000 ton Super Tankers and knows more about boat handling than their intire staff.

Cheers they will never have me as a member now
Al

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