Personal Handicaps?
- Ancient Geek
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Personal Handicaps?
Is this serious? http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=151713
Seems a bit too late for April 1st.
Seems a bit too late for April 1st.
Simples.
Re: Personal Handicaps?
It could have been posted on the Rooster site at the start of April.
As for personal handicaps we have been doing them at Shearwater for years and now have Beginner, Novice and Experienced categories which give +40%, +20% and 0 on the PY respectively. People move up categories with time and also by winning a series.
As for personal handicaps we have been doing them at Shearwater for years and now have Beginner, Novice and Experienced categories which give +40%, +20% and 0 on the PY respectively. People move up categories with time and also by winning a series.
(Half Cut and What a Lark Removals Ltd)
Re: Personal Handicaps?
It starts off like an April Fools, but I reckon the system seems pretty sound.
I have never seen a personal handicap system work.....but this just might.
I only read it quick.....but if I understood it....then I like the fact that no-one 'decides' what personal handicap you get but it is automatically worked out from past race positions. Also that the good sailors still have something to race for and that there is nothing at all to stop this system being run in tandom with a more normal system.
It would of course only work for a series of club races.....but that's what it is about!
Good system, like the idea
eib
I have never seen a personal handicap system work.....but this just might.
I only read it quick.....but if I understood it....then I like the fact that no-one 'decides' what personal handicap you get but it is automatically worked out from past race positions. Also that the good sailors still have something to race for and that there is nothing at all to stop this system being run in tandom with a more normal system.
It would of course only work for a series of club races.....but that's what it is about!
Good system, like the idea
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
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Re: Personal Handicaps?
Hi
Very against Personal Handicap systems. Used to race a Sonata in Plymouth when they introduced a PHS, because we were successful we ended up being handicaped out of the racing ( having the same rating as a three quarter tonner). Result we gave up several other successful boats gave up racing collapsed. PHS is a sop to the weaker sailor, new sailor. Instead set up a beginner race series. There is no substitute for coaching, practice and time on the water. Race by all means encourage new sailors but do not drive out those that are experienced. They also need to have a fair crack at the whip.
Cheers Al
Very against Personal Handicap systems. Used to race a Sonata in Plymouth when they introduced a PHS, because we were successful we ended up being handicaped out of the racing ( having the same rating as a three quarter tonner). Result we gave up several other successful boats gave up racing collapsed. PHS is a sop to the weaker sailor, new sailor. Instead set up a beginner race series. There is no substitute for coaching, practice and time on the water. Race by all means encourage new sailors but do not drive out those that are experienced. They also need to have a fair crack at the whip.
Cheers Al
Last edited by alan williams on Wed May 19, 2010 9:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Personal Handicaps?
Personal handicapping running behind the normal handicapping can work OK - it becomes a bit of a game, and cause for chatting over lunch. It also helps spread the prizes away from just the same few boats. As they will still have the normal prizes, I can't se the harm. As Alan says, though, when it is the only prize, there is no incentive to sail well.
Mind, it should work better in a class race - once you add the inaccuracies of personal handicapping to the already vague PY system, results are pretty much down to chance. As such, I can't see the point in an overly complex system that no one really understands - thats what Portsmouth Numbers are for...
Mind, it should work better in a class race - once you add the inaccuracies of personal handicapping to the already vague PY system, results are pretty much down to chance. As such, I can't see the point in an overly complex system that no one really understands - thats what Portsmouth Numbers are for...
Rupert
Re: Personal Handicaps?
Totally agree with you Alan, I don't like personal handicaps either....and my experience is that they never seem to work.
But the point of this.....if you read it....is that first, it can be run alongside normal results and second, the system itself does award the winning boats by giving them a published 'prat-factor' or whatever. so there is as much reason to want to push your known handicap up. A bit like Golf I guess.....where people are very proud of their handicap.
eib
But the point of this.....if you read it....is that first, it can be run alongside normal results and second, the system itself does award the winning boats by giving them a published 'prat-factor' or whatever. so there is as much reason to want to push your known handicap up. A bit like Golf I guess.....where people are very proud of their handicap.
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
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- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
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Re: Personal Handicaps?
Hi Ed
A system with the name Pratt I feel would put off most people. Fancy saying to friends that you have a pratt factor of 20 most would either agree or suggest that it was higher.
Cheers al
A system with the name Pratt I feel would put off most people. Fancy saying to friends that you have a pratt factor of 20 most would either agree or suggest that it was higher.
Cheers al
Re: Personal Handicaps?
Hi,
personal experience suggests that a personal handicap system helps even out unfair PY ratings. I sail at a club dominated by Solo's, they sail nearly as fast as a laser on small lakes like ours but you have to beat one by 3 minutes to win under the PY system alone!. As a result the personal handicap race is the only one where sailors of other less favoured classes stand a chance.
personal experience suggests that a personal handicap system helps even out unfair PY ratings. I sail at a club dominated by Solo's, they sail nearly as fast as a laser on small lakes like ours but you have to beat one by 3 minutes to win under the PY system alone!. As a result the personal handicap race is the only one where sailors of other less favoured classes stand a chance.
STEVE
Mermaid 137
Laser 41420
Streaker 1331
Mermaid 137
Laser 41420
Streaker 1331
Re: Personal Handicaps?
I would have thought that's an example where a club should modify PYs into club yardsticks for classes as the guidlines for using the PY's say you should do.
Re: Personal Handicaps?
Me to, but they refuse to run the system properly so the PH route is all we have!
STEVE
Mermaid 137
Laser 41420
Streaker 1331
Mermaid 137
Laser 41420
Streaker 1331
Re: Personal Handicaps?
I sail at a small club which runs a personal Handicap Pursuit race as a midweek evening race & the system is very simular to this.
The first 20% have a minute added to their start time & the last 20 % have a minute taken from their start time for that day.
Tha start times are orginialy taken directly from the PY & are altered through the series & then carried through to the next series as well.
Any new comers start on the proper PY start time & have their start time altered as the series goe`s on unless they are a known standard & their start time + or - is then agreed,This week at the finsh 80% of the racers were on the same leg & within 30 meters of each other.
This fleet has a solo that starts AFTER a well sailed Phantom & 5 minutes after my Harrier + & is usually in the top 20 / 30%
This system of racing is as popular at my club as the RTC`s racing on a regular sunday & we have a fair amount of people who wouldn`t race on a sunday because they consider that sunday is for serious racers rather then them,However how some have decided that they have the ability & now also do the sundays & some sunday racers do wednesday evenings.
I think that this system has brought more sailors & older boats into active membership & who will continue because they have enjoyed themshelves.
The first 20% have a minute added to their start time & the last 20 % have a minute taken from their start time for that day.
Tha start times are orginialy taken directly from the PY & are altered through the series & then carried through to the next series as well.
Any new comers start on the proper PY start time & have their start time altered as the series goe`s on unless they are a known standard & their start time + or - is then agreed,This week at the finsh 80% of the racers were on the same leg & within 30 meters of each other.
This fleet has a solo that starts AFTER a well sailed Phantom & 5 minutes after my Harrier + & is usually in the top 20 / 30%
This system of racing is as popular at my club as the RTC`s racing on a regular sunday & we have a fair amount of people who wouldn`t race on a sunday because they consider that sunday is for serious racers rather then them,However how some have decided that they have the ability & now also do the sundays & some sunday racers do wednesday evenings.
I think that this system has brought more sailors & older boats into active membership & who will continue because they have enjoyed themshelves.
Re: Personal Handicaps?
Ths solo in question at my club is sailed above the standard of the fleet so Personal Handicaping works for this race series.chris wrote:I would have thought that's an example where a club should modify PYs into club yardsticks for classes as the guidlines for using the PY's say you should do.
Altering the PY for the fleet on the basis of one boat would be unfair to the rest of the fleet but again the water sailed on benifits the solo but we sail the boats we want to sail NOT usually the boats to win on PY.
I like to think that most people are not that sad.
Re: Personal Handicaps?
Why is it sad to sail a boat that is well suited to the water upon which you are sailing?
I've bought a Lightning to sail at Whitefriars, and the Firefly is pretty damn good there, too. Why would I go out and buy a Musto Skiff, say, and then complain that other boats have an unfair handicap advantage? In the case of a small lake, it would be much more fair to alter the handicaps of the boats which are unsuited to the lake than those which are right for it.
I've bought a Lightning to sail at Whitefriars, and the Firefly is pretty damn good there, too. Why would I go out and buy a Musto Skiff, say, and then complain that other boats have an unfair handicap advantage? In the case of a small lake, it would be much more fair to alter the handicaps of the boats which are unsuited to the lake than those which are right for it.
Rupert
Re: Personal Handicaps?
The trouble is when the club racing becomes dominated by a single class the sailors of other less favoured classes tend to go elsewhere . The PY system has the option to vary handicap numbers built in to allow fine tuning for local conditions.
STEVE
Mermaid 137
Laser 41420
Streaker 1331
Mermaid 137
Laser 41420
Streaker 1331
Re: Personal Handicaps?
I'm with Rupert on this: Some time back I did a piece on handicap racing called 'horses for courses' and that just about sums dinghy racing up in one cliche. It goes further though than just the particular 'water' that the racing takes place on.
It still amazes me that people persist in sailing a boat that is either too big, too small or just plain wrong for their particular brand of sailing!
And therein lies the issue with personal handicaps! Is it right that someone who is sailing a boat that is patently unsuitable (Ruperts example being the Musto skiff at Whitefriars) should be helped more than someone who sails a boat that matches the local conditions or their own physique? If a class is dominant at a club then there is any easy route for an amendment to be made to the PY number. Mind you, even this is risky: I was looking recently at a set of club results where the poor old phantom was again coming in for some flak. But although the leading boat had won just about everything at the club that there was to win, the next Phantom was coming nowhere. The winning boat was a top performer on the open meeting circuit, a sailor who had invested time and money perfecting what he had and what he did with it! Should he be handicapped for being one of the best?
Surely, the reward for effort expended should be success, not the tilting of the playing field?
D
It still amazes me that people persist in sailing a boat that is either too big, too small or just plain wrong for their particular brand of sailing!
And therein lies the issue with personal handicaps! Is it right that someone who is sailing a boat that is patently unsuitable (Ruperts example being the Musto skiff at Whitefriars) should be helped more than someone who sails a boat that matches the local conditions or their own physique? If a class is dominant at a club then there is any easy route for an amendment to be made to the PY number. Mind you, even this is risky: I was looking recently at a set of club results where the poor old phantom was again coming in for some flak. But although the leading boat had won just about everything at the club that there was to win, the next Phantom was coming nowhere. The winning boat was a top performer on the open meeting circuit, a sailor who had invested time and money perfecting what he had and what he did with it! Should he be handicapped for being one of the best?
Surely, the reward for effort expended should be success, not the tilting of the playing field?
D
David H