are we getting heavier

[davidh]

Rupert,

saw this thread over on the Y&Y website and thought it had a certain relevance here.

One of the advantages of many of the classic boats is that they will still carry weight. From the classic Finns to the classic Merlins, the need for a racing snake of a crew can be overlooked - though there are plenty than can be sailed by the lighter sailor (as you've proved with the Tonic).

You may well recall me covering just this subject a while back when DSM still graced the bookshelves.

My arguement was pretty much as per the thread. If you look as us (ie, the human race) we've never been bigger - in all terms.....taller, heavier (and I'm not just talking obese now - even healthy people) and the pace at which this change is happening is accelarating.

But there is another side to the arguement that the Y&Y forum have missed:

We've also got - in the main - healthier - so now there is little to stop sailors in their 50s sailing on a regular basis. But with age (at least for most people) comes increasing girth, body mass, eyt a decrease in flexibility and joint strength. Yet dinghy sailing is still not recognising this - instead it seem they want to all sail what are just grown up version of yoof boats!

D

[roger]

None of us want to admit we are getting past it

[Ed]

Wasn't it exactly this kind of 'user' that the 59er was aimed at?

I am not sure how much of an issue this is....?

I think you have to look at it within a context of the average age of sailors continually appearing to rise.

Yes, it gets harder to just hold it all together as you get older......but as you say, we are fitter, have more spare time....and of course wetsuits are better.

so I don't know, I think if you designed a class for 'oldies' then no-one would want to race it anyway.

talk later

eib

[alan williams]

Hi I agree David
The class that was the pinnacle for heavy crews was the INT 14 however with all the recent developments the current 14 I'm reliabily informed now sails to a crew weight of 24stone or less, this is equally true of most of the modern designs be they single hander's RS100 comes to mind or two man RS 800 etc. Interestingly the 59 has adopted a trapeze so that one does n't count as a heavy weight boat anymore. However this is also true of some sports boats with maxium crewweights. One of the Roadford Finn Sailors who also owns a J24 was told that he had to lose 4K in a very short peroid of time to be able to enter the J24 Nats. With rigs becoming more efficient and allowing light weight sailors to be able to handle larger sail areas the Heavy Sailor is at a definate disadvantage. Even the Finn is finding that the boat with a matched rig to weight can be sailed very successfully by the lighter helm. I do however see the case for the older displacement sailing dinghy or the big guys boat like the Nat 18, Jollyboat, classic 14 (I now discount the FD and the 505 due to rig developments as a boat that can now be sailed very successfully by lighter crews), or small single handed or 2 man non-planing keel boat.
Cheers Al

[Michael Brigg]

so I don't know, I think if you designed a class for 'oldies' then no-one would want to race it anyway.
eib

Isn't that why you race a Jolly boat Ed??

[Rupert]

The Alto appears to have been designed with gammy knees in mind, and as a weight carrier. Not sure how well it is doing - bad time to launch a new product of any sort, let alone an expensive boat.

[rme_01]

At the risk of allowing age to creep over this one the issue for the older dinghy sailor (I speak as one) is definitely declining agility rather than body mass and in this respect the current trend to lightweight hulls, twin trapezes and asymmetric spinnakers the size of the millennium dome is a bit depressing. Thankfully we still have the classic designs offering a bit more displacement and I don’t think it a coincidence that round here (mid Wales) the biggest fleets are the Fifteens confirming that most people of a certain age like a bit of weight and prefer to stay right side up. I am not quite sure why I sold mine last year!

Of course this trend is nothing new – in the 1958 “Sailing Boats” the great man himself bemoans the loss of weighted boards in the 14’s and Redwing. Which brings me to a question (purists should stop reading here). I am seriously thinking of making an alternative weighted board (say 60lbs) for my 1957 (Fairy) 14. I appreciate that this wouldn’t be true to build but I want to sail her once restored and being somewhat older than the boat herself I would appreciate the extra weight where it counts. I am reasonably confident that the case would take any additional load. Any (printable) thoughts?

Robert

[Michael Brigg]

I would have misgivings about increasing weight in a boat that is meant to get up on the plane at a certain wind speed. It is my experience that an overweight boat with oversize sails becomes more of a handfull in higher wind strength as the weight of wind in the sails is going to be greater.

This is why so many of the day boats with heavy keels have to carry what appears to be a pocket handkerchief spinaker. Without the benefit of being able to plane, for these boats as the wind increases there is only a marginal increase in speed and so the wind strength feels greater.

Even going upwind, the greater weight may allow you to stay more upright, so once again you will be getting more drive from your rig and at increased speed the wind will feel stronger and the sails will be more of a handful.

The increased plate weight will tend to lie forward of the crew weight and will tend to hold the bow down. Again, destabilising the boat at speed as more of the rocker fore and aft is submerged rether than the flatter aft sections.

I thought The "Great man himself" was more famous for suggesting that weight was only useful on a steamroller?

[rme_01]

yes, you are right about the steamroller quote (always one of my favourites!) but UF seems to be quite clear about the benefits of the 60lb (half wood/half lead) board on the 14s in terms of providing righting moment when needed. In fact he goes so far as to suggest that getting rid of the weighted board has "eliminated the 14 from the seas". I take your point about heavy displacement hulls but cant help but think that 60lbs on an all up weight including crew of say 600lbs would not make too much difference except in competition which is not that much of an issue in this case. I am tempted to experiment - it is a development class after all!!

[jpa_wfsc]

Well - I must blow the Skua's trumpet here! The class was designed with this very issue in mind - Ents and GP14's were becoming too much of a handful in the often heavy conditions in NE Scotland.

From my own experience in F4-F6 Solent, Skua with a cruising main and genoa was faster upwind than Dart cats (VMG) with no more than sitting out - not hiking - mostly cos the hull and weight got her through the chop still moving fast.

And downwind - well she does not exhibit the difficulties mentioned being quite serene to helm with a couple of fingers and a thumb on tiller while sailing with racing main and Fireball sized spinnaker. And planning fast!

However - a very very wet ride with some difficulty keeping the bow up (but never any feeling she was going to dive under or broach).

I'm very pleased (but she remains less than ideal on a lake - even a big one like clewedog - I think mostly as the controls are somewhat set up for sheet and cleat style sailing.)

Next time CVRDA sails on the sea folks can have a go!

j./

[Rupert]

I think I'd be wary of putting a heavy keel in from a structural point of view, but not from a sailing one. I would assume that if you are cruising, you won't be putting a huge kite up in conditions where you might be driven under. It will certainly help with stability. You may well need to put a decent lifting mechanism in for it.

However, if the case is only held in place by the thwart, I would consider putting an extra bracing piece in forward, firefly style, if possible. If not, then possibly a knee forward, near the pivot point.

Of course, it may already have plenty of strength, as you will be putting less pressure on it than when pulling the boat up from a capsize!

[Ed]

I can only talk about this from the other angle.

I originally sailed the Jollyboat with the 65lb galvanised steel plate, but removed it and replace with a lighter board, I have used both a very light ali board and a wood one.

To be honest my opinion is that the boat only becomes easier to sail and handle with the lighter board and I would not dream of putting in a heavier board again.

The only time it seemed to help, was once everything had gone to ratshit and you were in the water alongside the boat. In this scenario, it certainly does help the boat come up again. The Jollyboat (with wooden mast) would pretty much always self-right if left alone, the wooden mast would stop it inverting and the plate would bring it up again. Of course the issue then was that the boat was VERY full of water.

So, I don't know.....it might slow down the 'wobble factor' a teeny bit, but if you are trying to sail well, I don't think there is any advantage at all.

cheers

eib

[Stephen Hawkins]

I am......getting heavier, that is.

.....Would it not be better for all just to reduce sail? Or is 'Reef' a naughty word?.....If so, sorry, I won't mention it again......ssssshh!

[jpa_wfsc]

.....Would it not be better for all just to reduce sail? Or is 'Reef' a naughty word?.....

Paul Elvstrom won an Olympic medal once because he reefed and no one else did... (Firefly, 1950's)...

[JimC]

Would it not be better for all just to reduce sail? Or is 'Reef' a naughty word

Its quite a challenge to sort out reefing for modern dinghies as opposed to traditional style craft. I learned this the hard way when I built my PlusPlus, which had a reasonably efficient built in reefing system.

The first issue is that if you just pull the mainsail down the mast your mast bend characterisics go to hell, and so you have to reef the mast as well as the sail. To make that worse you want the topmast to stay the same length and the hounds to drop, so a telespcopic topmast is out. I did it by having a telescopic section at the borttom of the mast. You pulled out a pin in the mast and dropped the mast down into the stump. Then you hooked up the shrouds to extra eyes using fast pins. Finally the downhaul and clew go to new anchors and the excess of sail was rolled up in a zip. It wasn't an operation you could do sailing, but it was well under 5 minutes at a jetty or on land. The lowers meant you didn't have to take the sail all the way down unless it was howling.

The second issue was that the amount you lost dowmwind with the extra sail area was so overwhelming that if you could possibly hang on to the extra rag upwind by blading everything off, flatting, twisting etc etc then you needed to, and if the condtions were so extreme that you couldn't hang on to the extra rag somehow the you were going to pitchpole on the run even with the reef in...