I dont believe it

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roger
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I dont believe it

Post by roger » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:01 pm

Just happily browsing through the September issue of Classic boat only to nearly choke on my cuppa. Under the class notes section is an article on the l**er. So now the boat has been recognised as a classic.....

"Arguably one of the best examples of a modern classic ever launched"

May be its time to recognise the Ford Mondeo as a classic car as well then.

Just my oppinion..
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neil
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by neil » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:17 pm

sounds like the bottom of a barrel being scraped.
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Rupert
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by Rupert » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:36 pm

1971... I'm guessing that there are plenty of cars of that era regarded as classics? Isn't that MK1 Escort sort of era?

The cvrda is 12 years old, and took 1965 as it's reference date - that makes the Laser 6 years older than the boats we allowed in 12 years ago...

Just to give another view point!
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jpa_wfsc
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by jpa_wfsc » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:13 pm

I spent a couple of days teaching in (and therefore sailing) lasers the other week. I find it hard to accept an argument that they are a _bad_ boat, as they are so responsive to everything the helm does. They are very good for teaching race boat helming skills!

So all of the above is just banter really with no offence meant to anyone who thnks a L**er is a bad boat - but one can have different opinions and live together in the same club.

Phantom as a simmilar example - old wood ones I feel should fit into the cvrda ethos - they can's be made to perform with the new class boats. But old lasers can. Not a basis for a rule though - old Firflies can sail with the modern class and win!. We do have the discretion to allow or disallow individual classes. Maybe we should think about the moving age system - as lots and lots of modern boats (classic or not) are going to end up eligible any time now, and in some of those classes, age is not a determinant of maximum performance.
j./

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neil
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by neil » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:51 pm

Usually we have this debate during winter when there's no sailing and it's too cold to varnish ;)

It's been discussed many times, and would require a change to the constitution.
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by Rupert » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:08 pm

Lets discuss it again in 4 months... meanwhile, lets go by the thread's title and expand on things a bit... I don't believe the price of hiring portaloos - one quote I had for 2 loos for 4 days was £170 + VAT... Rapid Hire came in cheaper at £90 +VAT - anyone know of cheaper?
Rupert

Michael Brigg
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by Michael Brigg » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:35 pm

I don't know, things have been a bit dull lateley!! :wink:

At the risk of re-introducing this forum to the delights of song and dance! :lol:


Village green preservation society!

Is this not the role fulfilled in part by this forum? It is not about wether a boat is a good boat, but more a case of conserving and celebrating the delights of a bygone landscape that was populated by a variety of design and performance that catered for all the ability levels of the sailing public.

This landscape is inevitably made less interesting when in the manner of a non native species, a boat without rival or weakness is introduced. The very success of the laser rests with its relatively ordinary performance, with few faults. (But I still grind my teeth when my mainsheet fouls the transom :twisted: :lol: )

Image
Native White claw on the Left, Signal Crayfish on the Right.

So like Grey and red squirrels,...or for that matter the Non native Crayfish on the river Am or the Killer Shrimps in our lakes and reservoirs, we are seeing this crowding out of our own, less efficient, quirky, but previously numerous variety of dinghies with dull grey uniformity.

Culling is the only answer! :twisted: (Combined with rigorous protection of the native designs.) Local clubs have to be encouraged to make conditions favourable, by providing startlines for older fleets. Without a local grassroots development classic boating will slowly fade away.

We had both boat classes that had to be faster or bigger or flashier than their predecessors (still confined to a minority of so called "Level racing" classes) in addition to one design racing and a simple formula that most sailors were happy to accept for handicap fleets. I think the handicapping systems have tended to be regularly disrupted by development classes on "level rating," deliberately designed to take advantage of of thier own formula then clean up against one design boats that dont have this priviledge. This inevitably led to a surge into a boat that gave percieved level racing, and once the Faustian contract was made, the decline of local club one design racing was inevitable.

Depending on your veiwpoint this is good or bad.

Personally I have both and sail my classics for pleasure and my laser for, I don't know, kicks perhaps, certainly not to race, everyone else is far too good!

Perhaps a directory of clubs that actively support older boats might help to build up local pockets where the club's main fleets include some older classics. For example clubs that have regular racing for, say Enterprises, or fireflies, or scorpions, or Hornets, (and so on.) perhaps along the lines of the Dinghy database. Unworkable or too big a project perhaps?
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roger
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by roger » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:49 am

I am not saying the Laser is a bad boat. I have sailed them many times and enjoyed myself. My point is that you can hardly call it a classic and my gripe with CB is that they have given a whole page to a class that is debateably classic when they could barely give 70 words to the Bosham event which was very definitly classic.
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JimC
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by JimC » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:32 am

roger wrote:with CB is that they have given a whole page to a class that is debateably classic when they could barely give 70 words to the Bosham event which was very definitly classic.
But maybe they will sell a shed load of mags to Laser sailors who wouldn't otherwise have bought it, and maybe some of those will be inspired to take on a more conventionally classic boat...

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Re: I dont believe it

Post by Pat » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:47 am

It's not the Laser itself I find objectionable, they can be a fun toy. It's just the totally self-focused attitude of many who sail them which gives the class a bad name. Lasers caused all the accidents I've seen on the water by ignoring rules and assuming everyone will get out of their way.
Look around the club next time and see who has parked their boat or car in the way or spread their mast and sails across the only path between your boat and the slipway or......

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Re: I dont believe it

Post by Rupert » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:30 am

So, we should be bashing Yachting Magazines, not the Laser?

I find Classic Boat to be imperfect (ie, it contains some things which I find to be less than interesting), but it has to be said that out of date race write ups, even of something as interesting to be at as Bosham, are fairly tedious to read, and something for which the internet is far better suited. Love reading about and looking at pictures of boats where a broken fitting will cost more to fix than my who fleet cost to buy! I read in one copy (I assume in the same section the Laser was in) a nice (if possibly slightly inaccurate) history of the Cherub, and I think they do a different dinghy every month. Better than no dinghies at all in a yacht focused publication. I've not seen the Laser article, but while it may not be a Classic in the cvrda constitution's sense (and I for one am happy about that) it is a classic piece of design & engineering.

Reading PBO at Clywedog, it struck me that it is far closer to the cvrda way of looking at things than either Y&Y or Classic Boat. A good (practical) article about the pros and cons of Folkboat lookalikes, for instance. Anyone know anyone at PBO? Can see a nice comparitive classic boat test - what would we put up against each other for comparison? Peggie V's Mirror 14 V's sliding seat Hornet? Minisail V's Pisces V's Beachcomber?
Rupert

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PeterV
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by PeterV » Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:03 pm

Isn't it about laziness? The Classic Boat class guides I've seen always seem very 'light' with very little in the way of research or insights. Therefore it makes sense to do the Laser rather than go out and find a more difficult but more deserving boat to write about.
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neil
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by neil » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:15 pm

I have to admit that I used to own a Laser. I bought it for winter 'fun', though at 16 stone I found it the most boring boat I've ever owned. But, and I begrudge saying this, it did have a higher purpose - to get Anne sailing (with a 4.7 rig) while I gave instruction from the Spearhead (not designed for singlehanding, *splash*). She liked the sailing, but hated the Laser, so we bought a Tideway - more fun but slightly slower.

I do also admit to being biased against Laser parents, as at one open meeting at Roadford a few years ago I turned up, found the cover off my boat and some parents helping themselves to the mast sections. They wanted to 'borrow' them as Jocasta/Toby/idiot child has just broken theirs and it was apparently fair game to 'borrow from any Laser, old chap. We all do it'.

They have never come back.
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Michael Brigg
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by Michael Brigg » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:28 pm

Rupert wrote:Lets discuss it again in 4 months... meanwhile, lets go by the thread's title and expand on things a bit... I don't believe the price of hiring portaloos - one quote I had for 2 loos for 4 days was £170 + VAT... Rapid Hire came in cheaper at £90 +VAT - anyone know of cheaper?
I don't believe it!

Camping at Whitefriars for the National rallies and it looks as though Rupert is promising us Canvas tents and a wooden trestle, over a 3' pit full of blue smelly liquid!

Ahh happy days!! :lol: :? :oops:

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jpa_wfsc
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Re: I dont believe it

Post by jpa_wfsc » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:34 pm

perhaps there is a suitable arrangement of Laser* parts that could be made use of, thereby saving the cost of portaloos, barbeques, and field showers. We could discuss such utilitarian uses of those flat slabs of GRP over a beer or two at the rally.

j./
j./

National 12 "Spider" 2523
Finn K468 'Captain Scarlet'

British Moth, 630, early 60's 'Pisces'

!!!! Not CVRDA !!!!
Comet Trio - something always ready to sail.

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