Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

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SoggyBadger
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by SoggyBadger » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:32 am

A few years ago, I did a race in Tremadoc bay. It was a lovely day with a nice force 3 breeze. But initially I couldn't understand why the centreboard was occasionally being bumped up as I knew were in at least 5 metres of water. Then I noticed the sea was full of large jelly fish. My centreboard was occasionally hitting them. I wonder the effect would be on a foiling Moth if it hit a jellyfish at speed?
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by Rupert » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:06 pm

Sorry David, I've just reread the thread, and I can't see where you were sniped at? If it were me, it certainly wasn't the intention, and I'd say we are pretty much in agreement that top down pushing of one part of the sport and the doing down of another is bad news.
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Ed
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by Ed » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:47 pm

OK....ok....

calm down everyone.....

David....stay right there! We value your contribution and your willingness to say it. Not everyone will always agree with you, but I for one welcome your return and would miss your input to the forum.

This is obviously a contentious topic and many of us will feel strongly, but this does not mean there is any reason for anyone to feel that they are unable to put forwards their opinion. I would ask you to consider that as we are a 'classic' forum, our membership is unlikely to be representative of the wider sailing world and what we see as 'right' or 'sensible' may well differ widely from what the main body of dinghy sailors want, let alone the manufactures or the young bloods coming up into the sport.

I would also ask you all to give a little more respect to those who spend the time and effort on a post ......and read it and think a little about it first before answering with a one sentence rejoinder.

Now I was enjoying this conversation, so pray....continue

But be careful out there.

Best wishes

eib with 'moderator' hat on.
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by Ed » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:28 pm

The thing about foiling boats....is that they are still new and quickly evolving.

Yes, they do now take vast amounts of time/skill/effort on the water and the gym to be able to use them. Yes, they are expensive, yes, they need lots of water. Of course they reflect the sharp end of development in dinghy sailing....and yes, at the moment boats like AC cats, the IntMoths the A and C class cats are all top end expensive boats, but most of them always were. AC boats have never been cheap, and they have never sailed much on Whitefriars. Neither do A or C cats. There has always been that difference. I don't think the number or A-cats sailing in the solent makes much difference to the fleet sizes at UTSC somehow.

But I really don't think that foiling will remain in these top-end boats. It will go main-stream and much sooner than we imagine. I do think it is likely that in the future our children will have a much wider opportunity to foil if they wish. As for what is the mainstream and what is 'high-end' sailing.....we shall have to wait and see.

But first I would like to introduce a boat that some of you might know. the UFO

http://www.fulcrumspeedworks.com/UFO/

This boat was developed by Steve Clarke and sons.

But interesting thing is...now watch this:

https://youtu.be/2yTk7vDejeo

I have to put this in from memory as I don't have time to watch it through to get the accurate quote, but Steve's intention was to build a boat with the cost of a sailfish, the ease of sailing of a sailfish and the ease of ownership of a sailfish.

This boat you just might see on a small UK lake....

But just consider how this is just one attempt to bring foiling into the mass market.

I wouldn't bet against it.

Is there a bad side to this? Well not sure the Clarke clan are spending as much time sailing and building canoes as they should be! :-)

I would love a go. I am rather hoping they might be bringing one over with their ICs for the IC worlds.

cheers

eib
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trebor
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by trebor » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:38 pm

David,
I too would like to apologise if I have offended you, completely unintentional I assure you.
I enjoy reading your articles and posts on here and other forums.
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by trebor » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:22 pm

I was impressed by the Clarke families idea, then even more impressed that they have carried it out.
This boat and others in the pipeline will most certainly bring foiling to the masses.
I am fortunate that I am fit enough to give foiling a go, after watching links kindly provided by ed, I would try one of these boats, but honestly I think my club would ban them from the general mellee, we have a very wide range of boats and our sailors range from 8 to 80 and all abilities.
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ent228
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by ent228 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:43 pm

Moths were racing in Torbay a week or so ago, same as the Feva nationals. I stood on a headland about a mile away and had a good look.

Fevas, closely grouped very slow at that distance, Moths buzzing around moving really fast, they reminded me of water boatmen. As our club had sent two teams to the Feva nationals I was really pleased that there was a consideable distance between our youths and the moths. I simply cannot imagine what would happen if they were racing on the same course.

We spend a fair bit of time making sure on safety boat courses that the meat grinder on tha back of the safety boats does not come into contact with human body parts.

I wonder what the affect of the foils of a moth at 25+ knots is on the human body? Does anyone know? Has anyone done some experiments maybe with pig carcases suspended in the water?

Ok, maybe that's a bit raw but there was an incident last year when someone got a really bad injury falling off a big foiler and I wonder who at the clubs who race Moths or the controllers of the water on which they sail is thinking about safety?

Three years ago sailing a Squib at Salcome I came across a Moth in difficulty in the middle of the channel opposite the posh yacht club. Some one was comming for him, but Salcome, in the summer in a boat that does 20knts + seriously.......swimmers and all sorts of other people in and on the water. Fortunately in a Squib I felt quite safe.

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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by jpa_wfsc » Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:21 pm

Rupert wrote: Shame I can no longer see it, as it seems you now need to sign up properly, and I'm too mean.
BBC 2 daily highlights show for the rest of the competition... free.
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trebor
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by trebor » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:04 pm

Tried to set a course on our lake for foilers, only 3 of the seven buoys can be used,Buoys 1, 2, 3, and 4 can't be used water to shallow, assuming that occasionally they may stop foiling for whatever reason. Buoys 5, 6, and 7 have good depth, but are in a straight line, would need to put extra buoys to make a course.
Their were other issues too, I asked safety boat crew what they thought about safety cover for foiling race, main point they raised was swimmers, saturday, safety crew were constantly asking people to move to bathing area, got so bad after 3pm we had to cancel last race.
Water too shallow by jetty, when water level down, boats like GP14's can drag their centreboards.
speaking for my club of course, other lakes and clubs would have different issues or none.
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by SoggyBadger » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:40 am

It's not just inland clubs where foilers would have issues. Anywhere where you have to launch though the surf or have to sail out through a shallow, narrow channel would be extremely challenging I suspect. Not that I imagine such factors will weigh on the RYA. All they seem to care about is generating grant and sponsorship money to fund their own lifestyle jobs.
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by trebor » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:28 pm

I would imagine they have thought about when foiling sailors become to old or unfit, will their be any normal dinghies for them to retire to ?
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by chris » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:33 am

Someone at a university has proved you can make anything foil. this one is both amazing and quite funny.
see this for a foiling Oppy...yes that's right a foiling optimist!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UokOO60dsMU

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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by Stephen Hawkins » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:41 pm

I wouldn't buy an N12 after 1970, so there is no chance you'd get me buying a foiling dinghy.

The moment builders started removing thwarts and other crew seating, that's my interest in the class gone.

That is the trouble with the classes where a boat is being fine-tuned to win a particular race at a particular type of venue.

Its not a new issue.

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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by trebor » Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:09 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW_UfYGO3Kg
Short video of foiling moths sailing with non foilers.
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Re: Blue sky thinking or Dark and Stormy days ahead?

Post by JimC » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:10 pm

Honestly chaps.
Have sliding seats come to dominate the sport to the exclusion of all else?
Have trapezes come to dominate the sport to the exclusion of all else?
Have catamarans come to dominate the sport to the exclusion of all else?
Have Asymmetric kites come to dominate the sport to the exclusion of all else?

Add as many other new technologies as you like to the list

And add to that whether any of them have proved incapable of mixing with other technologies.

So now you have an excellent clue as to whether lifting foils will.
Last edited by JimC on Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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