Request for information - Beneteau Wizz

[neil]

I think we need to be careful about the 'lost classes' as the Laser II, Hornet and Shearwater still have active class associations.

I think we are in danger of classifying too many classes as 'lost'. The definition we've used is

.......those often strange and weird classes of dinghy, that were drawn up by excited designers full of optimism but never became established with the fickle sailing community.

Sometimes it was because they just weren't very good, sometimes because they were way ahead of their times or a bit weird or scary.

However many of them are very interesting boats and important parts and stages of the evolution of dinghy design

So yes to the like of Spearhead, ToY, Unit and no to the Laser II etc as a lost class.

As far as eBay and it's impact, personally I think it's a lot wider than just eBay. There are free places to advertise ( http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk , http://www.apolloduck.co.uk etc) and class associations have their own websites there's more of a marketplace for advertisers, as opposed to eBay where it costs to sell.

You only have to look at the decline of classified ads in Yachts and Yachting and it's easy to see the attraction of the free advertising in DSM and various websites.

[davidh]

Neil,

I agree with every word you said BUT...........I wasn't thinking in terms of the CVRDA when I talked about 'lost' classes. In the old days, when these things mattered, the RYA called them 'moribund' and slowly started to close the file. There are plenty of examples of this: the ToY, Mirror 14 and Harrier spring to mind.

What I've been looking at is the 'dynamic' of all this: Classes slowly shrink down but still hang on for years, "bumping and scraping along the bottom" to coin a phrase. Then, they fall below some point of critical mass and that is it.....gone. There may well still be stalwarts who will champion the boat well past any normal reason, but the reality starts to bite when the Class Association folds through lack of members and new blood.

Take the two other boats I mentioned, the Wineglass and Swordfish. Both good boats, but never the less boats that may have had their day.

I've Race Officered for both the Hornets and Shearwaters over a number of years and have seen their slow decline. I've also seen how the loss of a small number of key personnel can have a disporportionate impact on the class's fortunes. I've also sailed in both fleets and have the warmest and fondest of memories (well, maybe not of the Hornet, anyone who could remember anything after sailing one just can't have been there!)

Yet how would they be described today? Vibrant, go ahead classes with a strong future, or a class that is getting close to the 'hanging on' phase. Ditto the laser II, Laser EPS (sorry Laser, nothing personal, just thinking aloud), Spice, Boss, I've no doubt that there are plenty more to add to the list.

At some point and to me, the indicators suggest soon, classes will start to drop off their perch. Which begs my earlier question: Which classes?

Sadly, some of the boats that are most at risk, seem to have their heads buried deepest in the sand. In the end therefore the deciding factor may not be how good the boat is, but how alert the class is to the growing danger of getting 'lost'.

So far, my research suggests that there are many factors at play here - BUT... that timescales will soon start to compress.

D

[LASERTOURIST]

Well the Laser 2 isnt a bad boat (we were given two incomplete Laser 2, well worn out -specially the sails- ) and manage to make a serviceable boat that made a long and rduous singlehanded trek St Florent / Ajaccio, roughly 1/3 of a round corsica trip in September means a lot of Mistral days...
the guy only had trouble wih the sails - that was predictable and he had been warned about it and we lent him the second set to finish th trip..

The only thing about Laser 2 is that it was mere adjustment of the Laser for 2 people, without much groundbreaking advantage over, say, the 420.

It hadn't the same "evolutional leap" as the Laser had , compared to the OK.

29er is truely groundbreaking allright in that size of dinghies, but it is at texpense of stability and all round use.

The Wizz was a different story: daniel Nottet and the Voiles et Voiliers magazine team were (in the 80's) dinghy bluffs and specially 470 bluffs.

They realized that dinghy practice was dwindling, (470 was becoming expensive because of olympic status, and dinghy sailing was losing to evert other style of craft (the older ones went for cabin-mussel collecting- "cruisers", those with a taste for speed rather than tactics went for Hobie cats and the young and less well off went massively for windsurfing....
and windsurfing attracted many people ou of the traditional boating circles.

Nottet and VV campaigned to produce a modern fun boat as simple as the laser but that could appeal to windsurfers...when they would have a stable girlfriend , and then kids as well as ex racing dinghy sailors rebuffed by increasing complexity (I'll post a link to a miraculously preserved 1961 420 to compare with a modern one)

Beneteau went in and comissioned their usual architect Jean Marie Finot, who had been hugely successful with keel boats (Revolution , that won many Admiral's cup rflated races, and then Vendée Globe style ocean racers) but the troublewas Finot (who learnt his job as a junior partnet of Philppe Harlé) had no, or very little dinghy background.

The Wishbone rig was suposed to appeal to windsurfers and be very simple to rig....but as it had shrouds and a jib ....well , it was clumsy to rig, the main couldn't be lowered (remember the first Laser M and Laser Radial rigs that incorporated a halyard?)

When bearing away the "belly' of the wishbone went in the shrouds an prevented the sail to be trimmed for running.

The (semi daggerboard/ semi rotating) centreboard was a copy of the Misral sailboads, Beneteau had adapted t successfully as a keel to First 18 , First 22 , FistClass 8 and others ....but it was out of place in a dinghy....granted, it pivoted in case of shock , but when coming back to the beach in shallow water, it had to be put vertical (full draft) to be taken out of the boardcase, or f not you had to capsize the boat in the sand o take it out.

The rudder was even worse Nottet and Beneteau had specified a self righting (Hobie style) rudder, but cheaply built....

They came with a crazy system of plastic half cylinders (acting as pintles) that were bolted on the sides of the rudder blade, some notches and rubber blocks ared for full down , shallow water and full up rudder positions.

The bolt hole (and thus the pivoting axis ) was at 1/3 of the profile chord, theus making a "compensated rudder".
This and the friction of the half cylinders made the rudder feel absolutely neutral and "deaf and mute" as no nformation about the boat attitude was transmitted through the helm...if you add Finot's knack to design hulls that go straight even with a good deal of heel (most desirable on a vendée globe or Mini transat or eve Open 5.7 Dinghy...but uterly stupid on a centreboard 6 crewalanced dinghy....well you have the stupidest rudder ever (even if there was some coherence in the thougts).

Most Wizz owners as of today have bought their boat for cheap and heavily modified it much in the style of what SAILART did....and thats the way our british pruod wizz owner should do...
With these kind of alteration (traditional rig, asy kite , conventional rudder , trapeze the wiz (at least a sound hull) can make fun but wet boat to play with

[Pat]

David - a main attraction of ebay, appolloduck etc is the "instant" advert. Typically everyone wants things NOW, especially if it involves money and Y&Y and other classifieds have a considerable delay before publication so the item may well have been sold elsewhere in the meantime.
As for lost classes, the first criteria should be not having their own class association.

[davidh]

Pat,

I agree. I think the compression of timescales, no long waiting around for a phone call, no having to deal with the crop of time wasters, that attracts many eBayers. I've hopefully picked up all of this, now I have to see what the mag will make of it. Despite the 'compression' of time and space, I though DSM did a good showing of part 2 of the designer series, Proctor, Morrison and Howlett. I was very pleased to get a super picture from the Proctor family, far better than the one in the MR book, did you see that? It's MR 290, Cirrus, winning the Nationals!

Lost classes will always be an emotive subject. But if anyone thinks that this is not something that is now 'getting an airing' at high level, along with thoughts about some form of rationalisation of clubs, then it is 'head in the sand time'. These are not my views, all I'm doing is commenting on moves that are slowing getting to the 'top table' in the sport.

Could it be, that in years to come, an agenda that promotes fewer clubs, sailing fewer classes (but then by implication all would be class racing) would serve to 'better' the future of the sport??

I bet you this: you'll not get than many denials!

D

[LASERTOURIST]

Hello...
It is quite an interesting point of view... too many tiny classes means handicap racing, which is not as interesting than one design homogenous racing.
In the Sixties and seventies , for each successful boat launched by a particular boatyard, there were near identical copies built (and sold, albeit in small numbers) by a rival boatyard.

Abundant examples exist both sides of the Channel, just think how many clones of the Laser were built (Yamaha sezahopper , estel, vario, X4and a host of others) those boat after some undistinguished first ownership often make cheap e bay alternatives to the original boat that has taken most of a particula r market slot.

Some of theitr new owners register in sailing clubs (more for the parking lot than with the idea of racing) ...and then , well they are not very active .

When dinghy sailing was thriving some clubs could afford the luxury of being choosy and turn down the owners of those "misfit"boats, just to build homogeneous competitive one design fleets.

Today , in France , most clubs are fighting with some form of decline and have little choice but accepting those "odd boats".

The other problem (clearly an e Bay related one) is that the e bay buyer, goes for a good cheap bargain and is often very new to sailing....and thus will fall for the copy rather than the original
Sometimes the e bay seller is also surprisingly unaware of what kind of boat he is selling

It is visible in the way the ad's are written (either they dont have a clue of what their boat is, or recycle internet litterature they got through a google search)...

E bay buyers mostly go for recreational boats ( just to go around sailing -faire des ronds dans l'eau as we say here) and attract them in some sort of participation in club life and even modest level competition is not an easy task for clubs...

[Rupert]

Certainly round here in the cotswold water park there is no need for club rationalization...We have Whitefriars, Bowmoor, Cotswold and South Cerney all within a few miles of each other, and as far as I'm aware none are struggling for membership. Of course, all have small water to sail on, so none can get any bigger. Things may be different on the south coast, but I bet each club, just like round here, appeals to a person looking for a different thing from their sailing?
As for dying classes, I suspect we shall see the demise of many of the new boats (Iso, Buzz, Laser 4000, Magno to name a few) long before the 1950's vintage of boat (Hornet, Kestrel, even the Swordfish) completely vanishes, as I think there won't be the same loyalty shown, or the same interest from sad old people like us for the "last of it's kind".

[davidh]

Laser Tourist,

We've been quite lucky here in the UK, as the figures for dinghy sailing, although down, are still in line with expectations. Some bits of dinghy sailing, in particular youth and ladies racing, are quite well on the 'UP', the concern is mainly for the grass roots level of competition, the regular Sunday slot at the sailing club. Here the situation is more patchy, for some clubs are buoyant, others clearly struggling.

I was involved in a discussion with the Sailing Secretary of a 'BIG' club, on a reservoir in the south of England. Despite there being some 600 boats in the dinghy park, their late autumn series had sometimes seen turnouts that struggled to make double figures!

On can see the rationale behind the thinking now 'creeping' onto the agenda. Chop out all the dead wood, then 'move' the active sailors to a club where there is something going on, in this manner the one design fleets will be bolstered to give better racing.

Taking Ruperts point, it's the same here on the South Coast. The clubs are, in the main, full, but much of that is a function of the availability of space in the dinghy park. Could they rationalise....sure BUT, is the htinking behind this not a little bit idealistic?

The love sailing loves of my life are Merlin Rockets and Contenders. I could go to Hamble and sail Merlins, or to Weston and sail Contenders, but instead sail at Netley by choice. I've been there a long time, it's where my friends are and I wouldn't welcome something akin to a compulsory move.

To me, any moves to move ahead with any of these ideas smacks of the 'head up the a*se' thinking that lead to the total screw up about classes for 2012 and the cats.

With Roger busy putting foot and mouth together (as long as it's not foot in mouth - that's my trick) I attended the RYA Racing Conference wearing a CVRDA hat as well as that of a journalist. When asked if I had any special issues, I suggested that the RYA was getting dangerously fixated on youth and olympic sailing. This got a big round of applause - and some grim looks from the top table! Could be an interesting summer!!!!

D

[roger]

All Dont write off the Hornet just yet. The new boat is racing in the Battle of the Classes and with the right push it may just bring a few more people into the class.
David is right though it is down to the people on the committee and the rest of the class members to keep these classes afloat. The Hornets seem to be stuck with the idea that they need a week long nationals/Europeans which with other family commitments is far to long.In my oppiniona long weekend would get better turnouts but thats another discussion.

[LASERTOURIST]

Hello!
As many clubs , back in france (specially on inland lakes) tend to go deadwood parking lot (but that there seems to be a lot of people willing to pay for the parking lot (at least for the first year, after that the club often has to "nationalize" the abandoned boat for club use ...if only the sails and equipment have been left in a club's locker)... well i've thought a line of conduct for club chairmen and boards:
Ask for a heavy membership / Club parking fee ...but envision it in a "decreasing /evolutive way".

Ask for a somewhat high sum every year, provide the boat owner with a card where holes can be punched and rubber stamps applied.

Boat owner coming for just a ride : punch one hole, stamp
Same coming for attending a regatta : punch two holes, stamp
Same boat owner coming for club help (mow the club's lane, fix the roof in the club house or act as an assistant race officer, coaching for the kids...anything useful and previously agreed for on a list of tasks ) punch 3 holes, stamp

End of financial year: refund boat owner part of his money according to a fixed fare table and the number of holes punched (of course some sort of floor exists so that the club is still left with some money at the end of the year...)

As for old sailors practice the french FFV is rediscovering that , too.
it's certainely because young pepole, with the crazy globalized world we live in, have more difficulties in studies and work, and thus less time for such an hideously poetic, time consuming and lazy activity as sailing....

[highburyal]

(I'll post a link to a miraculously preserved 1961 420 to compare with a modern one)

Do you know much about the history of the 420 class. I am presently sailing an older boat (K6383) which I ought to bring home for a rub down and coat of paint. I'd be interested to know how old she is, could I sail her at CVRDA event?

Not sure where or when she was built, and not near enought the sailing club to pop in and look at the builders plate. She appears to have a second mast step and shroud plates in front of the normal one, was this to allow single handed sailing under the main alone, haven't got around to trying this set up yet?

Any info much appreciated, Al

[DavidC]

We have never had the problem of abandoned boats in the dinghy park in Brightlingsea because we insist the park is cleared for Jan to March each year and therefore start with a clean site each April.

Of course this only works if like us you don't sail for 3 months. It does stop the deserted boat problem though and sailing on the North Sea at that time of years is .....
D

[LASERTOURIST]

http://www.voilesportive.com/forums/vie ... php?t=4309

Hope the link works (should do if copied in the browser)..

[LASERTOURIST]

The 420 was intended both for 2 in and singlehanded from the beginning by the Socoa team (in case you got an odd number of pupils in a sailing class)..hence 2 mast steps and the 2 sets of chainplates on the early Lanaverres., along with a special second slot in the centreboard case for the sainless steel fittings holding the centreboard pivot.
420 Europeans and worlds included a singlehander event in their programme until 1970, somewhat similar to the Dart 18 Cats.

Same feature existed on early spanh boats (poliglas, with wooden mast) and Snapirs from Israel ...discontinued on later boats (vanguard from USA, Rondar from GB, Lenam from Spain and Nautivela fomItaly as well as Boatique , CNA and Boutemy)...an attempt was made to revive singlehanded 420 with a bolt on kit for a OK stylerotating mast (special mast gate) but it was not popular as in the 70's the 420 ceased to be used as a sit in 2 adults boat and was used as a junior Trapeze boat.

The old Lanaverre (25 years barn storage) featured on the thread was built in 1961 and definitely looks quite modern for it's time specially if compared to a period GP14..but retains some period features: wooden mast and boom (though the mainsheet was later moved from transom to centre cockpit ) no traveller (perfctly uncluttered cockpit) and the factory made adaptable traveller upgrade hasent been installed on that particular boat, original one pintle laminated aluminium rudderstock (instead of the later cast aluminium epoxy covered rudderstock), wooden cleats here and there, vang sheaves included in the stocky square shaped bottom section of the mast, bronze fairleads for he jibsheets, infamous "toe killer" tube type self bailer, v slots acting as cleats for the centreboard control lines in the thwarts/benches on the centreboard case sides.

The mainsail is the original elvström (with reef) but the jib is more recent.
An article about the Socoa sailing school was published a few years ago in Voiles et Voiliers, and there was quite a bit about the beginning of the 420, with th recollections and memories of the three creators, Pierre Latxague, Aristide Lehoerff (chief sailing instructors and 420 promoters)and Christian Maury who did the design and production developpment.

Another article isabout the lat Lucien Lanaverre ad his boatyard in Bordeaux Bastide with much focus on it's star product the 420...maybe someone can scan these articles...hope it helps

[highburyal]

www.voilesportive.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4309

Hope the link works (should do if copied in the browser)..

Great, that looks just like my boat, except mine is red (well faded pink really). I guess I will have to bring her home and clean her up now I've seen these pictures.

I'm sure mine carried a builders plate from the south west somewhere, who was building 420's in england at the time?

Al