I'm presently sailing 420 K6383 and trying to find out a bit more about her. The builders plate is Honnor Marine in Totnes. The hull looks very similar to Lanaverre boats of the same period from the link posted by lasertourist http://www.voilesportive.com/forums/vie ... php?t=4309. Did Honnor mould hulls or finish imported lanaverre hulls, or just sell on boats? Any info much appreciated.
Cheers, Al
Early 420s
Re: Early 420s
Hi there,
My club has a very early 420 also "made" by Honour marine that looks similar to the one from lasertourist. The L shaped bow fitting is the same and the shroud plates for the forward mast position. Maybe they were imported in kit form. The bow fitting gives it a good link to Lanaverre,
as I have never seen them on any other boat.
My club has a very early 420 also "made" by Honour marine that looks similar to the one from lasertourist. The L shaped bow fitting is the same and the shroud plates for the forward mast position. Maybe they were imported in kit form. The bow fitting gives it a good link to Lanaverre,
as I have never seen them on any other boat.
Re: Early 420s
Hi all,
I've just run lasertourist's link through the babelfish translator and he says that lanaverres have a transom flap on the port side of the transom same as our club one, so short of finding out more about Honour marine. I think these may have been imported as I have always found the portside only transom flap strange.......
I've just run lasertourist's link through the babelfish translator and he says that lanaverres have a transom flap on the port side of the transom same as our club one, so short of finding out more about Honour marine. I think these may have been imported as I have always found the portside only transom flap strange.......
Re: Early 420s
My school bought one of these early Honour Marine 420's around 1964/5 and I recall visiting the works in Totness where they were made. I seem to recall seeing the moulds so I guess they built them from scratch. It was not a popular boat with the pupils and felt very flimsy and twisted in strong winds. The best thing about it was the very little water in the boat when recovered from a capsize. Prior to this we had Enterprises which required a two bucket tango to sail on.
I still don't like them.
I still don't like them.
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highburyal
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:12 pm
- Location: Forest of Dean
Re: Early 420s
Yeah, transom flap on port side, self bailer on starboard. Boat does feel very flimsy, but sails well non the less, and only cost £106 ready to sail. Ok for blatting about in though I doubt she'd hold her own in a modern fleet (understatement)! Al
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highburyal
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:12 pm
- Location: Forest of Dean
Re: Early 420s
PS were french built lanaverre boats of this period equally soft or was this just a characteristic of the Honnor Marine hulls?
Re: Early 420s
The 420 and 470 all suffered from going soft very quickly. Both classes had a very strict (and still do) laminating schedule which was not up to the job. Builders have spent years trying to get stiffer boats, hence the latest Dutch 470 which is using a new hi tech resin to try and get stiffness. The 470 was always said to be a chep boat to campaign for the Olympics because the purchase price was relativly low. Problems was you needed a new boat evey 6 months.
The boats are soft because thats the way they were made.
CHeers
D
The boats are soft because thats the way they were made.
CHeers
D
Re: Early 420s
I remember hearing the 470 described as the class where you changed the hull more often than the sails...
Rupert
Re: Early 420s
I'm going to throw in my thoughts.
The 470 is a brilliant boat which unfortunately has been spoilt by its reputation at Olympic level. It's a great club boat which is very fast and repays skill in getting upwind and down in stronger winds yet is very easy to sail. I think the last club to sail them was Swanage in the 70s and at that level it really doesn't matter how often the stars change their boats, it will still be the best sailor that wins.
The 420s a little different. It's very easy to sail and like a training bike with stabilisers for learning to trapeze. It's problem is that its only worth sailing when everyone else packs up, then it really goes. It's much too slow for its handicap in light winds and very much faster in strong winds.
The 470 is a brilliant boat which unfortunately has been spoilt by its reputation at Olympic level. It's a great club boat which is very fast and repays skill in getting upwind and down in stronger winds yet is very easy to sail. I think the last club to sail them was Swanage in the 70s and at that level it really doesn't matter how often the stars change their boats, it will still be the best sailor that wins.
The 420s a little different. It's very easy to sail and like a training bike with stabilisers for learning to trapeze. It's problem is that its only worth sailing when everyone else packs up, then it really goes. It's much too slow for its handicap in light winds and very much faster in strong winds.
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
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alan williams
- Posts: 1650
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
- Location: Devon
Re: Early 420s
My school also had Honnor marine 420's and the first registered fleet was at RPCYC. When the Worlds were held in Plymouth every 420 in Britain (about twenty at that time) was invited to take part mainly the Plymouth fleet. I did not sail in the worlds as for the same reason outlined by Peter prefered to sail and race my Hornet. However alot of young devon school kids and the members of RPCYC got to represent Britain in that World Champs. At that time only juniors were aloud to use the trapeze and had a hell of an advantage,they also had a single handed championship with the mast moved foreward and the jib removed, as well as having a special single handed rig similar to an Ok which also had racing The single handed racing taking place later.
Disagree Peter about the 470 a dogs a dog no matter what you feed it on only politics got it into the Olympic circus ahead of dare I say it a far better boat the Fireball ( I'll never live that down being an ex Horneteer). Mind you its proberbly been the best thing that happened to the Furball not getting selected. Look what happened between the FD and the 505. The 505 went on like the Furball to become a far more popular boat.
Al Finn 424etc.
Disagree Peter about the 470 a dogs a dog no matter what you feed it on only politics got it into the Olympic circus ahead of dare I say it a far better boat the Fireball ( I'll never live that down being an ex Horneteer). Mind you its proberbly been the best thing that happened to the Furball not getting selected. Look what happened between the FD and the 505. The 505 went on like the Furball to become a far more popular boat.
Al Finn 424etc.
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LASERTOURIST
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
- Location: France
Re: Early 420s
Surprisingly enough, the early Lanaverres (with wood inner keel, wood benches and high plywood coaaming) were better built than the later ones....
Nowdays , provided that the wood keel is not rotten or is replaced (moderately difficult job) they are still good strong leisure boatsas opposerd to later Lanaverres
these early boats were made almost entierly of thinly woven glass fabric while the later ones (roughly after N° 15000) were more industrially built with a good (or rather in that case bad) proportion of matt and projected fiber and a worse glass /resin ratio.and less time for curing...(somewhat like the early "irish made or us made" laser hulls compared o recent ones
Right at the same time the boat was going international , and was raced harder , with more forestay tension , more vang tension, with a result that the tank / hull gluing cracked somewhere amidships.
Lanaverre had some boats made with longer curing and more careful process for a selected batch of racing helmsmen while the standard sailing school boat was somewhat less well made ...a really bad decision as some other foreign makers (the first ones being Snapir from Israel) made carefully built racing 420's that are still rigid 30 years after...
I have a Vanguard 420 in my club fleet (recovered on a junkpile) and the hull is perfectly sound and rigid(true there are some gelkote craks on top of tanks as they were ligtened to beef up the lower hull) and a early Lanaverre (equally rigid) while late seventies Lanaverres are rather bad
Nowdays , provided that the wood keel is not rotten or is replaced (moderately difficult job) they are still good strong leisure boatsas opposerd to later Lanaverres
these early boats were made almost entierly of thinly woven glass fabric while the later ones (roughly after N° 15000) were more industrially built with a good (or rather in that case bad) proportion of matt and projected fiber and a worse glass /resin ratio.and less time for curing...(somewhat like the early "irish made or us made" laser hulls compared o recent ones
Right at the same time the boat was going international , and was raced harder , with more forestay tension , more vang tension, with a result that the tank / hull gluing cracked somewhere amidships.
Lanaverre had some boats made with longer curing and more careful process for a selected batch of racing helmsmen while the standard sailing school boat was somewhat less well made ...a really bad decision as some other foreign makers (the first ones being Snapir from Israel) made carefully built racing 420's that are still rigid 30 years after...
I have a Vanguard 420 in my club fleet (recovered on a junkpile) and the hull is perfectly sound and rigid(true there are some gelkote craks on top of tanks as they were ligtened to beef up the lower hull) and a early Lanaverre (equally rigid) while late seventies Lanaverres are rather bad
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420-Lanaverre 6387
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:13 pm
Re: Early 420s
Hey,
I'm the happy owner of a 1965 Lanaverre 420 (nº 6387) wooden mast, boom, cencerboard, rudder....
I've been restoring (and sailing, and even day cruissing!) this boat since mid 90's...
Last week I've got brand new racing sails! and now I'm trying to race (club) with late 80's and even with a cople of late 90's 420...
My question: Have any of you news of how to get a copy of the original "Tuning guide" (owners manual) for early Lanaverre?
I've got a copy from a 1967 "owners manual" in French, but unfortunatelly in that time the were already using alumnium masts...
Any idea?
Thanks,
Alberto,
P.S.: Take a look of our last "sunny" sailing days... last week , in Spain. A.
I'm the happy owner of a 1965 Lanaverre 420 (nº 6387) wooden mast, boom, cencerboard, rudder....
I've been restoring (and sailing, and even day cruissing!) this boat since mid 90's...
Last week I've got brand new racing sails! and now I'm trying to race (club) with late 80's and even with a cople of late 90's 420...
My question: Have any of you news of how to get a copy of the original "Tuning guide" (owners manual) for early Lanaverre?
I've got a copy from a 1967 "owners manual" in French, but unfortunatelly in that time the were already using alumnium masts...
Any idea?
Thanks,
Alberto,
P.S.: Take a look of our last "sunny" sailing days... last week , in Spain. A.
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LASERTOURIST
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
- Location: France
Re: Early 420s
Your 420 has been produced in 1966...
I am not sure there was any kind of tuning guide provided at the time, maybe only the most basic owners manual , later Lanaverres had a more complete owner's manual with mast rake clues and help for rigginf the Spinnaker pole topping lift, centreboard control circuit...etc.
I do recall a tuning sheet that was provided with the sails (they were ElvstrÔm only, sold in yellw oilskin bags and the early lanaverres wer almost as close a one design boat as todays Laser , made in the french elvström loft in cannes / Cannet rocheville) but there were only basic advice about top batten tension, outhaul tension , sail care and rinsing , the jib had a round window and a "nerf de chute" leech "nerve", a little line that could be tigtened to avoid flapping but ruined the airflow in the process, just like a big boat genoa.
The problem is how to match the modern sails with the wooden mast.
Originally there were no spreaders and then the steel tube ones (a very simple system ) could control the mast laterally not fore and aft like the modern adjustable ones do.
There was no mast gate (though a retrofit kit (all wood) could be adapted to the coaming, as well as a retrofit traveller could be adapted (grey fiberglass mounts to be bolted on the tanks, round traveller bar) later on the mounts were built in the tanks.
The mast was rather thick and massive , it was squarish from bottom up to mastgate and round / tapered above and on the spanish licensed boats made by POLIGLAS of Barcelona, the squarish part went even higher, up to the goosneck level.
The Poliglas boats were rather strongly built, had an inbuilt traveller mount for the travveller from the start and a very agressive "diamond head" non slip gelcoat on the top of the tanks
The sheaves for the boom vang were encased in the mast to save the cost of the then expensive tufbnol or aluminium / stainless steel blocks .
The cleats (not curry cam ones) , originally made of wood in the very early boats (1959/60) , along with bronze jib fairleads, but soon both items were made of plastic and the good cleat design is still produced and in use on hobie cat 16 masts for the halyards .
IMHO, if you want to sail: your vintage 420 at club level you should try to get a good second hand aluminium mast,matched with the sails tune it accoirding to the modern data available on the owners association website ; albeit with less jib tension , and save the wooden one for cruising and classic events .
The only difficult thing is to replace the centreboard hull seals , on those early lanaverres they were hidden in a square recess at the bottom of the centreboard case ; there was a stiff rubber lip glued on a soft foam rubber square profile, that was in turn glued in the recess.
It was a clever design for boats that were often dragged on the beaches in sailing schools (remember it was a school boat born in the Basque region )
Nowdays this has to be rebuilt from standard rubber profile available -wih luck) from an industrial rubber supplier.
I am not sure there was any kind of tuning guide provided at the time, maybe only the most basic owners manual , later Lanaverres had a more complete owner's manual with mast rake clues and help for rigginf the Spinnaker pole topping lift, centreboard control circuit...etc.
I do recall a tuning sheet that was provided with the sails (they were ElvstrÔm only, sold in yellw oilskin bags and the early lanaverres wer almost as close a one design boat as todays Laser , made in the french elvström loft in cannes / Cannet rocheville) but there were only basic advice about top batten tension, outhaul tension , sail care and rinsing , the jib had a round window and a "nerf de chute" leech "nerve", a little line that could be tigtened to avoid flapping but ruined the airflow in the process, just like a big boat genoa.
The problem is how to match the modern sails with the wooden mast.
Originally there were no spreaders and then the steel tube ones (a very simple system ) could control the mast laterally not fore and aft like the modern adjustable ones do.
There was no mast gate (though a retrofit kit (all wood) could be adapted to the coaming, as well as a retrofit traveller could be adapted (grey fiberglass mounts to be bolted on the tanks, round traveller bar) later on the mounts were built in the tanks.
The mast was rather thick and massive , it was squarish from bottom up to mastgate and round / tapered above and on the spanish licensed boats made by POLIGLAS of Barcelona, the squarish part went even higher, up to the goosneck level.
The Poliglas boats were rather strongly built, had an inbuilt traveller mount for the travveller from the start and a very agressive "diamond head" non slip gelcoat on the top of the tanks
The sheaves for the boom vang were encased in the mast to save the cost of the then expensive tufbnol or aluminium / stainless steel blocks .
The cleats (not curry cam ones) , originally made of wood in the very early boats (1959/60) , along with bronze jib fairleads, but soon both items were made of plastic and the good cleat design is still produced and in use on hobie cat 16 masts for the halyards .
IMHO, if you want to sail: your vintage 420 at club level you should try to get a good second hand aluminium mast,matched with the sails tune it accoirding to the modern data available on the owners association website ; albeit with less jib tension , and save the wooden one for cruising and classic events .
The only difficult thing is to replace the centreboard hull seals , on those early lanaverres they were hidden in a square recess at the bottom of the centreboard case ; there was a stiff rubber lip glued on a soft foam rubber square profile, that was in turn glued in the recess.
It was a clever design for boats that were often dragged on the beaches in sailing schools (remember it was a school boat born in the Basque region )
Nowdays this has to be rebuilt from standard rubber profile available -wih luck) from an industrial rubber supplier.
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420-Lanaverre 6387
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:13 pm
Re: Early 420s
Dear Lasertourist,
it seems as you can read my mind!
but, why do you think it was from 1966?
The plate is hard to read, but I'm almost sure that last number is "5" not "6". (take a look below)
Do you have acces to Lanaverre records? Let me know!
With respect to Alumninium mast.... What's the point for that? I intend to "race" not necessarily to "win".... ; )
(In fact I already own an another 420 Poliglass from 70's with Aluminium mast and integrated traveller.... it is like a... cupboard?) no point to the Lanaverre.
In this sense: I'm seriusly interested in the "retrofit" option for the traveller!!!!!! For the Lanaverre)
(Not becuse the increase in performance, but in order to release 1/2 tension from the Main to the Plywood centerline. In fact my plan would be to fit a bridle, and fix it to the traveller extremes.)
Some years ago, in strong wind...... I fully broke a 30 cm piece from the plywood centerline... that finished hanging from the two main blocks..., .... I still remember the sound... and our faces! ... not a nice feeling. With no bloks, we scaped "pulling both of us" from main and landed in a beach. We returned the 420 "home" with the help of a 2 stroke 2HP old yamaha outboard....
Well: Where could I find this fixtures for a traveller retrofit? I'm strongly interested in order to keep my 420 sailing, also when wind builds up.
For the centerboard lips, one is the original and is OK. The second one was seiged along the bow opening, and I just installed a "modern" new one in between the old one and the fiberglass, no problem.
With respect to the tuning, I'm specially intersted on the Jib entry "Groove"... any sugestion?
Well I include another recent pic from a more sunny day.
Thank you in advance!!
best,
Alberto.
P.S.: I know, I know, I sholuld look for softer battens, and release vang.... It was the first try of our new sails! ( but we do keep the old Elvstrom "round" jib...)
it seems as you can read my mind!
but, why do you think it was from 1966?
The plate is hard to read, but I'm almost sure that last number is "5" not "6". (take a look below)
Do you have acces to Lanaverre records? Let me know!
With respect to Alumninium mast.... What's the point for that? I intend to "race" not necessarily to "win".... ; )
(In fact I already own an another 420 Poliglass from 70's with Aluminium mast and integrated traveller.... it is like a... cupboard?) no point to the Lanaverre.
In this sense: I'm seriusly interested in the "retrofit" option for the traveller!!!!!! For the Lanaverre)
(Not becuse the increase in performance, but in order to release 1/2 tension from the Main to the Plywood centerline. In fact my plan would be to fit a bridle, and fix it to the traveller extremes.)
Some years ago, in strong wind...... I fully broke a 30 cm piece from the plywood centerline... that finished hanging from the two main blocks..., .... I still remember the sound... and our faces! ... not a nice feeling. With no bloks, we scaped "pulling both of us" from main and landed in a beach. We returned the 420 "home" with the help of a 2 stroke 2HP old yamaha outboard....
Well: Where could I find this fixtures for a traveller retrofit? I'm strongly interested in order to keep my 420 sailing, also when wind builds up.
For the centerboard lips, one is the original and is OK. The second one was seiged along the bow opening, and I just installed a "modern" new one in between the old one and the fiberglass, no problem.
With respect to the tuning, I'm specially intersted on the Jib entry "Groove"... any sugestion?
Well I include another recent pic from a more sunny day.
Thank you in advance!!
best,
Alberto.
P.S.: I know, I know, I sholuld look for softer battens, and release vang.... It was the first try of our new sails! ( but we do keep the old Elvstrom "round" jib...)