lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

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azimuth
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lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by azimuth » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:40 pm

Wondering if anybody can offer advice about how to join in club handicap racing when your boat hasn't had an offical PY for many years?

Also how do you translate from the old 3 figure PYs to the 'new' 4 figure ones - I remember racing off 113 at Servern SC in the 90s but that was a local number not an offical RYA one.

The reason for the question is that I'm intending to get my Zenith out of the shed this year for the first time in far too long and hope to join a club and do some racing somewhere in Devon - might even do some cvrda events once i've spent a bit of time remembering what i'm doing (not sailed in quite a long time!).


Many thanks!

Keith
Keith.

Finn K60 'Sfinnx' Fairey
Zenith 74 'Azimuth' (rescued from the undergrowth 20yrs ago)
Zenith 61 'Bali Hai'... A family heirloom...

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neil
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by neil » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:51 pm

Keith

Welcome to the CVRDA. If you are in Devon come to Roadford Lake (when it's a bit warmer) http://www.roadfordlakesailingclub.org.uk/. The CVRDA Nationals are at Roadford this year.
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Zenith's rebuild - www.pegasus18.com/zenith

Rupert
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by Rupert » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:48 pm

The Zenith handicap was 92 back in the early 70's, when the Lark was 93. I'd suggest, therefore, trying a trail number of 1073 (the Lark handicap) at your club, and then having it adjusted once you have got your sailing legs back and you can see how you are doing against people of similar ability. Swapping boats around for a race here and there can help, too.
And, as Neil says, come along to an event or 2 and we can help in whatever way we can.
Rupert

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neil
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by neil » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:55 pm

Harrison's Source Book of Dinghies has the Zenith down as 110

This is the same as the Finn for 1978 (now 1066)

The Merlin Rocket and Kestral were 109 but are now 1018 and 1038


Burrett (1974) has the Zenith off 92, and the Finn off 92.

He has`the MR off 91 and the Kestral as 92

So.....bearing in mind the Kestral has been updated and the MR have evolved I'd suggest starting off the same as a Finn at 1066 but as it's an older boat how about the same as a Classic Finn at 1071?
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Pat
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by Pat » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:24 pm

Albacores are 1066 and they were 94 so 1073 might be a better starting point.

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azimuth
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by azimuth » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:28 pm

Many thanks everybody for your replies - gives me a much better idea of the area the handicap ought to end up at. I suppose in the end it will be up to race officers and or sailing committees...

Roadford certainly seems like a possibility - especially with their cvrda connection I guess they must be used to unusual boats.

Joining you all at some cvrda events certainly sounds like a good idea (once I've rembered what I'm doing!) do you ever see any other Zeniths at them?

Cheers all!
Keith.

Finn K60 'Sfinnx' Fairey
Zenith 74 'Azimuth' (rescued from the undergrowth 20yrs ago)
Zenith 61 'Bali Hai'... A family heirloom...

Rupert
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by Rupert » Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:36 am

No Zeniths, but Zenith v's Pegasus will be an interesting battle!
Rupert

DavidC
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by DavidC » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:49 pm

From 113, 1073 makes sense because we used roughly x9.5 for the increase from 3 to 4 figures.
D

davidh
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by davidh » Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:50 pm

Oh dear..a dischordant word about to surface.

Remeber that there were actually two changes to teh PY scheme.

Taken together, I had always worked on the basis of a 10.42 multiplier.

One would NEVER expect an Isaf measurer to work to that lever of detail though.

D

110 = 1260!! I want I want.....
David H

Nigel
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by Nigel » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:00 pm

Hi all,

a straight maths conversion from my patented PY converter gives 1044. Given that all the other classes have been improving things over the last 35 years, 1070 to 1075 seems about right.

The trick is not to win anything in the first season then it will become set in stone and you can fill your sailing boots :D

(alternatively follow the lead of the laser vago.....one of the owners association members has now gone to the lengths of publishing their home invented PY on Wikipedia in an attempt to give it some credence within their own clubs) :shock: .

Nigel

Rupert
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by Rupert » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:03 pm

so, in the 3 versions
Zenith 92, Firefly 100
Zenith 113, Firefly 124
Zenith 1073, Firefly 1162

Given that the Firefly's handicap has fluctuated wildly, for some reason, that seems a reasonable progression.
Of course, for purests, the scheme where the Firefly is 100 isn't the 1st...
Rupert

DavidC
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by DavidC » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:01 pm

10.42, far to close. I normally only use 0.5mm accuracy on metre boats up to 50ft. Depends on the temperature :twisted: :D of course. Can get closer if needed :D :D :D

I was never involved in the original more from 2 figures to three, but 9.5 was the rough multiplier we used when trying to move from three to four. This was not the actual formula used to move to 4 figures but the one we used to try and re-establish a starting point if needed.

The PY has to be one of the most misunderstood systems out and one of the most blamed. Manufacturers are responsible for some appalling figures, usually plucked from thin air and what might help sell boats. At the end it is the RYA that gets blamed for either publishing a wrong number or not publishing one at all. The clubs that shout the loudest about the mistakes are usually the ones that never send in their returns.

However, it is all now changing. The wonders of the web. Using the main race programmes such as Sail racer and Sail wave clubs can now up load their club racing results to "their" section of the PY website. They can then have calculated PY's to suit their club and their water. How of then they change is something for club policy, but they will be able to show a proper tracked process. This means that their annual returns will also take nothing more than a click and the national numbers can be published on calculated data with variations if necessary. This will be better than publishing a national number and hoping that clubs take the time to adjust it for their local area and conditions.

Clubs are already signing up and hopefully it will be a really successful system,

D

Nigel
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by Nigel » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:30 pm

Hi David,

this sounds like a good scheme for the larger clubs/fleets but for smaller clubs and clubs that may have only one of a particular boat it has the potential to turn into a personal handicap for the helm. Is their some sort of damping built in to stop too much variation from the national number?

Nigel

davidh
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by davidh » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:15 pm

Nigel,

Dave (C) is right in saying that through the Sailwave initiative, the PY system could actually become an accurate way of racing disparate boats.

But... you do raise an issue!

Back in the days of the Mirror 14/marauder, there was a very good husband and wife team (the Smiths from Portishead) who won a number of big handicap events. The trouble was, they finished 1st, the next Marauder was closer to the tail of the fleet than the front!

Now I understand that Sailwave has some clever alogrithms that will take this skewing of the results into consideration. It doesn't though answer your problem.

On handicap, if there is only one of any class at a club, then tweaking the handicap is in effect, 'personal handicapping' - the great no go area of the system.

Of course, the bigger the sample, the more meaningful the data (see, this techo speak is easy really), so for a class like the Solo, the returns present a valid picture of the boats performance.

None of this helps our new freind in the Zenith of course, lets get him sailing first and worry about his handicap later.

BTW...will I get an age allowance if I sail a Finn on Sunday?

D
David H

Nigel
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Re: lost classes and handicap numbers - Zenith

Post by Nigel » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:33 pm

davidh wrote:BTW...will I get an age allowance if I sail a Finn on Sunday?
D
Winter fuel allowance? :P

how about a bag of coal to cart round the course - Back to my theory of weight handicapping :D

Nigel

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