Boat relationships Chart v0.1

[JimC]

The most scandalous ommission is the whole European scene, Jolle's and things ending up with 470 et al, but I know almost nothing about that.

Sources:
Books
Uffa's Books,
Fast Light Boats (Graham Anderson)
Higher Performance Sailing (Bethwaite)
[unpublished] (Chris Thomas)

Electronic
Nel Bethwaite
Peter Tait (Firebug HQ/John Spencer archivist)
Many people on web forums, esp SA and CVDRA

[Michael Brigg]

An interesting Chart with as you say, ...ommisions

I said:-

What will be the neanderthal dinghy?

In terms of its personality I would say a Finn, Definately a Finn!

[Rupert]

I'd love to see that chart taken back another 50 years, to show what local designs the fleets came from? I'm guessing the 18footers were from the fishing boats getting their catches back as quick as possible?

[davidh]

Jim,

this is very close to what I'd started - though from a very european perspective.

You also need to split away single handers from the two man boats - as there the 'family tree' is less convoluted and easier to follow.

I agree 100% with your view in the other string about the role of the I14 in the overall development. THey had had bursts of great change, then longer periods that at times resembled stagnation.

One of thier problems, at least here in the UK, is that there has been at times an air of elitism about the 14. Nothing wrong in that - when it is well earned. I'm not sure though that in the case of the I14, it was earned.

D

[Michael Brigg]

The Origin of the species is all about survival. For Darwin that meant "the fittest" as in round pegs in round holes. Prior to 1900, the emphasis in a boat was survival. There was little in the way of effective rescue services and an overcanvased or inherently unstable boat was of little use to a population that required mainly food rather than recreation.

The "Double skin" concept might have been used for example in Scottish fishing dories to allow water to enter the double skin and weigh down the bottom of the hull. this would provide stability at sea but unlike a heavy keel would not take the boat down when it was swamped say in a storm. It is interesting to note that Irish Water Wags, which many would suggest were the original recreational racing dinghies, used large cobbles as ballast. Again in extreme circumstances this could be thrown overboard in the event of threat of foundering.

Development of bouyancy and unsinkable hulls will have been a major step forward as has self bailing or draining cockpits. This in turn would allow for a more powerful and riskier rig. One only has to capsize a firefly (pre bow tank and Mark4 side tank) to understand how terminal such an event can be in a race.

Dinghy racing design prior to 1900 was almost non existant as far as I can see, but Local design to purpose was prevalent, Hence the significance of the One Design with little in the way of different classes adopting forein ideas. We are back to Willie Rushtons concept of "Drink what the locals drink, it's what works best for the local needs."

Beer in Britain, ouzo in Paris, Retsina in Greece, Ice cold in Alice.

Steep beaches required a large stern counter to unload the catch/cargo. Bum boats needed wide bilges to take a larger load to or from ships at anchor. Pilot boats needed both speed and sea-keeping qualities.

Local materials such as wood or bamboo would also determine what was possible. There is lots of design but not much development unless as ever determined by Military neccessity. Survival was the key and if the need or trade survived then so did the boat.

[neil]

And as far as devleopment go it's important to remember the IC's place in history and that the development was on both sides of the Atlantic

1875 Crew Weight Equalization System
1935 Jib Luff Foils
1947 Fully Battened Rig
1948 Wing Masts
1948 Self Tacking Jibs
1952 Spaceframe Construction
1956 Fore and Aft Sliding Seat
1956 HydroFoils
1982 Carbon Fibre Spars
1983 High-Tech Laminates and Foam Hulls
1984 Articulating Foils
1986 Leech Cut-Outs
1987 Swing Rig
1989 Asymmetrical Spinnakers
1993 Wishbone Rigs

[davidh]

Neil,

again...spot on, for the evolution of the Canoe is everybit as important as that of the 14. I think there is a danger though that all of the development boats have become so specialised now (back to teh Darwinian theory of occupying a niche) that any cross breeding is now well nigh impossible.

I think back to the 1980s, when attempts were made to Merlinise a popular National 12 design. A minute jib, mast set well forward, looked good BUT...didn't work.

In reverse, an attempt was made to introduce the dagger board from the 12 into the Merlin and that too got squashed - very quickly, as did the David Thomas rule dodge that gave Patrick King Nitro (for those not in on the story, the MR rules allow you to fair in the planks as they come together at the stem head. David Thomas noted that there was no limitation on how far aft this fairing was carried, so in effect he made a smooth skinned Merlin. Like dagger boars, this too was squashed by the rule makers).

The Merlin did give us the MRX and then the RS 400, but it is hard to see where further exploitation of the hull shape could go. I interviewed Phil Morrison a while back and asked him about this...... his view was that unless the rise of floor rule is relaxed, designs will continue to stagnate.

One can only send the best of hopes for the new Keith Callaghan Merlin currently being completed and fitted out. If it trumps the Winders - then great, but if it fails, it could actually be bad for the class as it will stunt any further attempts at development.

But back to Neil and his IC.... sorry Sir, wishbone rig. Look back to 1965 and the Widget... or the Shooting Star..... nothing is new in this world!

D

[Brookesy]

Regarding the Finn, unless I am mistaken, I believe it was evolved from a late 40's IC design by Richard Sarby.
It is us Finn sailors which lean towards the Neanderthal persuasion.

[Ed]

Some visual evidence for the ICs place in the history books:

Wing Mast:

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Wing mast Designed and Built by Austin Farrar in 1954.

Also details of proposed foils system:

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Can't find details at the moment.

Of course,they had their daft moments too:

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Alan Powell's sail from the 87 worlds - built by Dick Batt

All these photos.....and many more can be found in Andrew Eastwood's History of the IC...so if you want a copy...get hold of him.

And if your name is Neil....you will of course be wondering why your copy of the book is STILL with Ed.

A million apologies....and I will bring it back as soon as I come sailing next.

cheers

eib

[davidh]

Brooksey,

Rickard Sarby was actually a Swede, who represented Sweden in the Firefly Class at the 1948 Olympics. He could have been into the medals, but a DSQ dropped him down to 4th.

He went home and designed the Finn for the selection Trials that were held to find a new single handed dinghy for the 1952 games at Helsinki.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

D

[JimC]

I haven't been able to trace much direct influence from ideas in the IC onto other classes... My sketch is mainly about hull shape ideas, oherwise it could get even more out of control. It would be an equally interesting exercise to do a chart of designers influencing designers... There'd be another big nexus around NZ in the 50s and 60s: that vital man Spencer!

I don't know about cross breeding having stopped: there's currently lots of cross breeding going on between ICs, Moths and Cherubs... The N12/Merlin development line seems currently to have reached a static point, and the restrictions are such that new materials, which are often a sparking point for change, have limited effect.

[neil]

The last two posts do have a tenuous link. Rickard Sarby was a comtempory of Sven Thorell, both canoe designers and I seem to remember Thorell was in the 1928 olympics in the 12' and 1932 in the OJ

My IC, Zenith is a sistership to Thorell's famous 'Sol' - though she's a 'B' Class registered as an IC


Didn't Thorell also design a boat for the Finnish trials? (I dont have Finnatics at work to check)

It would be interesting to go to the Thorell archive in the SJÖHISTORISKA MUSEET in Stokholm. I do has a set of Sol/Zenith plans from 192something from that arctive, but he did go on to devleop a number of dinghy and small craft designs after his sucessful sailing canoe, so I reckon between Sarby and Thorell canoe devleopments have infomed other designs, just need to track them down.

The list of IC developments never claimed to be the first, it's just a list of devlelopment n in a particulaar class, but putting them togteher does show true development.

[Rupert]

Michael - Pastis in Paris, not Ouzo!
I've always assumed that the Finn used the OJolle as its inspiration?
And reading the history of the 14, many of the advances that were stifled or limited were done in order to encourage "seamanship" (read manliness?), as somehow too much bouyancy, large bailers or false floors were encouragements to sail without due care and attention! The banning of the Bell Rope was for similar reasons, really, daft as it seems from our perspective.
The history of the sailing canoe is a fascinating one, and one that can be used as a moral tale for us dinghy sailors, when looking at what happened to fleet sizes when the racing boats got too extreme...

[davidh]

Neil,

I think you're right...but the Thorel boat was no where near as good as the Finn. I also seem to recall that there was a problem with the politics behind the adoption of the Finn - as it wasn't from a local designer. Things were so much more parochial then!!


When I was up at the Bloody (Cold) mary, the Punk, the boat that came 2n, used a wishbone boom arrangement. I had to laugh at how many thought this to be a novel way of setting the sail..... like I said, it is easy to trace this back to 1965, if not earlier.

The canoes though do have a pivotal role in development terms, as this is where the idea of moving the crew weight outside of the hull confines all stems from (1895, Paul Butler of the US with the famous 'Butler Seat' - the direct antecedent of the sliding seat).

Jim C.... the problem is that the move you look, the wider the 'boundary'. Years ago (when those who went into medicine were still cutting up frogs in the lab!!) I went to do 'Systems Behaviour'...... sounds great (not). One thing it did teach though was the need to identify what was in the system, as against what was in the environment.

In the case of Spencer, it is all too easy to then include Bruce Farr - which then takes you way off on another track. Ditto Greg Gregory.... who featured strongly in the UK for a while as a designer, before fading away. Interestingly though, he was also making fast Flying Dutchmen at the time, so he at least links back into the UK/European dinghy scene.

The trouble is - do you try to show the related linkage between the boats - or the people - for if you try to do he both on the same axis and scale, you end up with a birds nest of interconnectivity - I've tried!!!

Before you get too het up on what is the neandrethal boat - remember that unlike 'adam' there is no single starting point - you could, very well, have one branch starting from the east coast boats that ended up as sharpies, punts... and then came on to the ToY, the YW scow and a host of other flyers.

You'd (probably) get a better response if you chose a more realistic approach of starting with:

International 12 - for single handers
(but showing the Canoe as a highly individual sub species)

The 14, say from the point at which the YRA granted it National Status.

Am 'on the task'.

D

[davidh]

Oh..and a PS,

You'd only drink Pastis in Paris if you want the waiter to start looking for the straw in your hair. That far north it's for tourists and yokels - more or less one and the same.

D