Otter or.........not a.........

[DavidC]

Having organized match racing, commentated on match racing (and other racing) and actually done some reasonably high level match racing, I will stick to watching the grass grow - it is more fun

The AC is doing just fine. It is doing what it has been doing for the last 100+ years. Bitching and arguing. It is the rest of the spot that needs to worry and for most grass root sailors the Olympics are becoming more and more and irrelevance. There is absolutely no way any club sailor can aspire to the squad and the youngsters that are pushed mincer-wise through the various squads and so disillusioned by the time they realize they will not make the grade we lose them to the sport for ever.

Cynical, maybe. Disillusioned, definitely, but that is probably what comes of dealing with the sport every day at international and Olympic level. I am not alone in my concerns, there are a growing number of respected sailors who have the same worries.
D

[Michael Brigg]

DavidC said

I will stick to watching the grass grow - it is more fun

Lots of people prefer this kind of thing...

...which is why is Golf such a popular sport on TV.

And Cricket, Snooker, even Crown green Bowling. Its something to do with the Grass. "One Man and his Dog" was quite a surprise on the popularity as well.

So sailing may turn out to be surprisingly popular in any form as long as the water is a suitably Green coulor. Bodes well for the UK Olympic venue at Weymouth.

When it comes to entertainment value of Grass roots however that is an area that really has taken off and Yachting is/could be in a position to capitalise if the sport plays its cards right.

In the year before the Olympics there are bound to be several documentaries following the development of our future gold medalists. With Sailing's record it will be a certainty that it will be in with a shout for this kind of publicity because theres nothing the producers will like more than picking a winner. At the last Bash we were shown a few of our promising Sprinters developing their ego's. It was unedifying stuff. Dull training in echoing indoor training venues, lots of posturing and confrontation avoidance and ultimately depressing for the lack of success .

Which bodes well for Sailing, because however bad the grass roots participation is in sailing it cant be worse than Athletics, which pound for pound must consume by far the greatest slice of finance per participant for the least in winning return and for that matter enhancement of local community facilities and quality of life. How many friends, no, even how many local aquaintances have you even heard of that do Athletics? (Not counting School kids who don't have a choice)

?

I'll bet, no, I'll hope for a few watersports reality programmes this time . After all, most of the UK Gold came from Sailing Rowing and Canoeing (and one of the Cyclists was originally a rower as well.)

Sailing (and that includes team racing and Match racing) has the potential to appeal across the board from athletes to geeks. You can be a muscle bound finn, a wiry windsurfer, an intellectual collosus (like Dennis), a gymnastic 49'er or just a sneaky cunning B*****d. Heavens, you can even be a girl!

Yachting needs to enter the Pre olympic feeding frenzy to find a local hero and turn it to their advantage. Of course there is a yawning gulf between the Olympic competitor and the weekend participant, there always was the old adage of 10,000hours of practice to separate medal winners from mere mortals, but at least in sailing there is a unique situation where even a week-end amateur can walk on the same track, and drink in the same bar as those who wave the flag for their sport.

[Nessa]

"Which bodes well for Sailing, because however bad the grass roots participation is in sailing it cant be worse than Athletics, which pound for pound must consume by far the greatest slice of finance per participant for the least in winning return and for that matter enhancement of local community facilities and quality of life. How many friends, no, even how many local aquaintances have you even heard of that do Athletics? (Not counting School kids who don't have a choice)"

Grass roots participation in athletics is massive compared to sailing, yet as a sport it attracts, per capita of particpant, a much lower level of funding. If you go to any club meet, as I do frequently, you will see every area of the demographic represented - something you could never say about sailing - with an entirely volunteer workforce keeping the show on the road. Membership of an athletics club is a fraction of a price of that of a sailing club, yet most clubs run training on several weeknights as well as at weekends.

Community spirit and quality of life? Most athletics clubs run events for kids, events for women and charity fun runs, all aimed at increasing community participation. Club athletes will also typically have a higher level of physical fitness than most club sailors simply because athletes train as well as race, whereas most club sailors simply race on Sundays and do no training.

Perhaps next time Michael pick on a sport you know something about?

[Ancient Geek]

I have to say something.
My late father was a part time crew for me before I could drive myself, but he was in ability and heart an Athlete, a high jumper of some note untill Adolf spoilt it all, Secretary and then President of one of the Leading Athletics Clubs (Herne Hill Harriers.) I can testify that the grass roots were and are well addressed, but then they are in sailing it is a bit later when that organisation that exists only to win Gold Medals the RYA gets in on the act with its pernicious squads and trainers of zero ability who make up for their own lack of competative success in sailing by bullying the young tyros, encouraged by the worst sort of pushy parents. As soon as the ones who do not make it can they quit and go wind surfing, surely the most stupid thing you can do on the water short of getting blown out to sea on an air bed!
I guess what I am really saying is that runners and yachters and any other sports should not be at odds but finding a way to keep peole in sport The Danes do it (Wait a bit I'll get walnut shells in somehow!) the Germans do it even the Americans do it. Every one but the Russians and former Russia and the British do it.
There is hope some years back Garry and I witnessed a mother at Itchenor (Tatlers Hard.) refusing to help her daughter rig and launch her Mirror I thought then there was hope.
There are quite a few decent clubs out there supporting grass roots they tend to be the smaller ones.
Nearly ten years ago that great Yachtsman Harold G Twincy and a number of others conducted a correspondence in Yachts and Yachting about just this problem it is worth revisiting. I kept it I have scanned it.

[Michael Brigg]

Perhaps next time Michael pick on a sport you know something about?

My apologies Nessa, I sincerely did not mean to offend. I agree that there are significantly greater numbers of people who might be included in the Athletics fold if we count "keep fit" activity such as Running. (or in many of the mass events, Walking!) I don't know the exact numbers but many of these occasional runners are not club members at all, or even affiliated to the sport. They do pay not insubstantial entry fees for the races however.

I am guilty also of having a bit of a dig. I was trying to argue the point in favour of sailing, and every sport will feel the need to put its better points forward. Sailing, as I tried to point out is a sport that caters for any kind of physique, not just the physically gifted, and increasingly Clubs are developing boat leasing schemes for those who may not have the funds to own one of their own. Sailors may not be fit, but they can if they choose benefit from many other healthy lifestyle aspects including Non competitive cruising, and mutual family enjoyment of the sport and club. For every "Royal and Ancient posh club" there are hundreds with inclusive membership. What is needed next is a drive to make the sport appeal across the demographic as well as being available.

Perhaps I should be more specific in defining "Athletics" as "Track and Field" athletics such as the type requiring a Stadium, Running track and field equipment. I do not doubt the dedication of those who regularly train where there are such facilities nor those that put themselves in a position to be voluntary officials at these events, but I do not think they are alone in this and no Sailing club could realistically survive without its members carrying out regular voluntary stints on the Starting platform or rescue boat, and for that matter many Sailing clubs do not pay their club officials either.

The demographic in sailing may be difficult to change because of the need for whole family participation or high standards of safety provision and the fact that Membership fees reflect the very low level of public investment in Grassroots bricks and mortar (national centres excepted.) The Cost of club membership in a Track and field club almost never includes the true cost of running an Athletics running track, let alone a stadium, these being at best leased from the local council or on a fee basis from a publically funded institution such as a school, college or the armed services.

My own (limited) experience of track and field has been with a local club supporting my children, and getting roped in for a few veteran meets. The attendance at training was enthusiastic but I would say comparatively small given the catchment of the club (covering a city of 100.000+)

My real argument with athletics (track and field) is that for the level of participation in the world at large that it can truly command, it has a disproportionate level of representation at the Olympic table. (Counting womens events its nearly 50 events isn't it?)

[Michael Brigg]

Correspondence%20Twincey%201w.JPG

(24.84 KiB) Downloaded 190 times

I copied it, and tried enlarging it. But it remains "All geek to me !! "

[Ancient Geek]

Michael I had to reduce the pixels to post it failed I have mailed you the full size!

[Ancient Geek]

Michael and anyone else,

The five ring circus should be simpler it should be man against man, no team games, no sports where equipment of a serious nature is needed and ONLY sports with an absolute standard so you can be sure that the best are all there, and the winner is the best of the best, I would take nothing from my friend Rodney Pattisons first Gold medal in Accapulco in 1968, but it is certain that anyone of perhaps six British FD sailors at the time would have won Gold, the silver medal was thus devalued (certainly in the eyes of the man who won it - he said so at the time!)
There really should only be one sailing class The Finn sorry if you are not big enough but that is the genetic lottery in life, whilst they do do lightweight rowing events not I think in the Olympics. In Athletic arena would people rush to see a short fat woman pole vaulter?

AG

[Rupert]

The short fat woman throws the shotput. There is no room for unfit people at the Olympics, but the Athletics do highlight that different disiplines demand a different boayshape. Just compare a 100m runner to a 10000m runner. Saying "only the Finn" is like saying "only the 800m" or something, and expecting all the talented athletes to be suited to it. Now, swimming, on the other hand, seems to need no particular body shape to swim a certain distance, hence 8 golds for one person, or whatever. Imagine the same person managing to win 100m and 5000m in running, or the highjump and the longjump, even.

[Ancient Geek]

Exactly the point, too many events altogether, Running Jumping and maybe standing still nothing without an absolute standard nothing with judges as to style etc., in Ancient Greek it was the finely tuned well oiled body that was as admired I am sure there were short Greeks but they did not become Olympians.

[Ancient Geek]

One other thing no flags except the Olympic no anthems except the Olympic it may be the best all come from Say High East Africa or Afro Caribean or Nordic but they will be the best.
Its boundaries and territorial disputes that cause wars!

[Rupert]

Nah, people cause wars, and will find an excuse somehow. Long way from "not and otter" now!

[Ed]

(Sorry if any of this already covered - just come into the thread)

largely agree with much of what the Ancient Walnut says...

Although think there is room for a few sailing classes....not just the Finn and I don't have anything against team events.

Certainly hate the flags'n'anthems and all that jingoistic crap

Personally would like to see 'team racing' in Fireflies in the Olympics. Cheap boats, good technical racing, would make good TV surely.

But all the country medal races really turns me off....and I suspect many competitors.

Not that I in anyway suggest it is similar....but when I was representing UK as a youth oarsman, some silly Sociology Researchers were doing some research around 'rowing for the UK' with the jist of "what does it take to represent your country". "Why do some make it and not others" "How long have you planned on rowing for country" etc etc.

I thought the whole basis of the research totally flawed for me and many others. I just never had that mental investment or interest in representing my country.

I never intended to row for my country....I never tried to get a junior squad place...I didn't feel wearing UK kit made me go any faster or train any longer or harder.

I simply went rowing because I liked boats and the river....I raced because thats what they made you do. When we won, I liked it, so tried to win some more. Each time we won, our coaches put us into tougher contests, which we continued to win. There came a point where we knew squad selectors were watching and told us "Win this and you are in"....so we just did. But each step was taken at a time, we had no long-term aims.

When we got to the World Champs, I didn't feel that proud really....I just wanted to have a go at the next level up. I would of been just as happy if we had all been representing our individual clubs.

In case you were wondering....our great run of successes up to the worlds was seriously dampened by some lousy performances and we were seriously trounced....but there you go...it was a gas.

eib

[Michael Brigg]

The important thing that those sociologists didn't get to see Ed is that after the East Germans roundly thrashed you, you continued to row, and so far as I am aware are still giving it a good bash. (When will the Bathurst Scull make an appearance by the way?? I'm looking forward to that.)

I would be very surprised if any of the East Germans are still doing it, and after the 4th Gold even Steve Redgrave asked someone to shoot him if ever he got back in a boat. (Mind you I don't think he ever meant that, it was just his way of giving respect to the opposition who had given him such a hard run for his money)

Respect for the opposition, and enjoyment of pushing yourself, or for that matter being pushed to the limit by your opponent are what true enjoyment of sport is about. In my early days of rowing I won races because I was afraid of the consequence of loosing. It was only after I realised I only had to try my best in order to repay the investment of my suupporters the I began to "enjoy" the hard graft of training. This realisation also greatly sweetens the bitter pill of second place.

Don't get me wrong. I am all for encouragement of winning but I believe competition and celebration of high personal acheivement is not elitism. One of the saddest things alluded to in this discursive thread is the loss to so many sports of those high achieving individuals who did not stay in the sport because they were encouraged to believe winning was the most important reason for entering the competition. The sports psychologists need to look very hard at this. If Winning is the only motivation then you have a fragile competitor, who will develop some injury or other that excuses them from losing the race. They should just admit they lost to the better man on the day. Give respect.

I blame people like Alex Fergusen and Man United for this. Have you ever seen him give the post match interview after his team lose. What a pansy.

Which finally gets this thead back on topic!!

Whoever buys this "Notta Notta" and takes it sailing will get my respect, because if I'm standing on the bank watching them sail it with their children I will have a pang of jealousy.

They have been more successful than I have and well done to them!