Forensic help needed - Firefly

[Faireycake]

The attached photos are of a recently acquired Mk 2 Firelfly which I am trying to identify the sail number for. Any ideas on how to bring the number out better without destroying any evidence as part of the very early stages of this restoration project?
There doesn't seem to be a number before the '2', what is evident under very close inspection is 255 which is across the hog , not as I have seen before, along the hog

[Faireycake]

Oh! and painted on the transom is the name Dylan and the letters BSSC

[Michael Brigg]

The clue is in the Outer planking which you have not shown us. Lontitudinal veneers were introduced at @ 3000, and Mark 2 construction at 3110.

If the outer planking is diagonal it is probably a convertion although if this were the case you might see longtitudinal deck beams under the foredeck, and evidence of side tanks.

The early mark 2 boats had side benches made of quite thin Ply (such as your boat has,) slatted benches came later. Most convertions would keep the side tank structure. The Knees at the back of the benches look original and are shaped to take Mark2 side-decks

The Number shown here is the Hull number NOT the sail number. The numbering is Die stamped and the hieght of the numbers too small to be the sail number.

A ruling was introduced @1980 that the sail number should be permanently marked on the hog, (usually carved) not less than 30mm hieght.

I am certain this boat is not converted but originally built as Mark2 and so it must be 3000+, so there is a missing 3. So look for hull number 3255.

I will look in my 1980 handbook for a boat close to 3255 with a name ending in LAN (All I can see of the name on your other posting!

[Michael Brigg]

Dylan, Thats Guy Davisons old boat. (Ex class chairman)

[Rupert]

With that much info Peter Lanham will certainly be able to help. As, as Michael says, will Guy. Someone on the Firefly forum will have contact details for him.

[Michael Brigg]

Sorry, but Guy still owns his boat F2539 which is called "Dillon" and was in exellent condition when I last saw it at this years nationals. Dillon apart from different spelling is also a different deck layout (Mark1A).

http://www.fireflysailing.org.uk/regist ... il_no=2539

The hunt continues

[Rupert]

Looking at the 1988 book, 3255 is missing from the records, which is annoying...

[Ancient Geek]

I know little of Fireflys beyond that they are cracking little yots and I had a lot of fun team racing in them years ago.
It would seem to me that the dies stamped 3 figures are more or less in the middle of the hog so could a 3 digit figure have any relavence? - Just a thought on this lovely spring morning.

[Michael Brigg]

It would seem to me that the dies stamped 3 figures are more or less in the middle of the hog so could a 3 digit figure have any relavence?

I don't think this is likely as 255 would date the hull as pre 1948 olympics

The Screw heads on the hog around the plate are Stainless or Chome plated (a later development I think. If the vintage was as suggested by a hull number of 255 thse would certainly be brass, and very probably sick. The horse is also chrome plated brass. I dont know when this became standard, but I think it was part of the make-over in the Mark 2 set-up. My earlier boats, 1590, 2281, and 2610 all had plain brass whereas 3184, like this has stainless fittings and chrome plated brass fixtures.

So, I'm still convinced this is a 3000+ Mark2.

Any imformation about the orientation of the outer ply layer?

BBSC brings up Bough Beech SC in Kent. There was an event there last year I recall.

[Ed]

I am sure this will all become clear very shortly....

But, you may find the numbers become far more obvious once you have scraped the varnish off. As you scrape down, the varnish gets left in the deeper bit and the numbers become visible.

As Michael says, the layup of the outer veneers will give a big hint to age.

And....mike says that the horizontal ones came in at 3000, but it must of been a bit earlier than that as I have F2942 (Shell - 2956) and that has the horizontal veneers.

The Number shown here is the Hull number NOT the sail number. The numbering is Die stamped and the hieght of the numbers too small to be the sail number.

A ruling was introduced @1980 that the sail number should be permanently marked on the hog, (usually carved) not less than 30mm hieght.

The numbering on hog as you say is the 'shell' number and is identical in size/layout/position/method as mine. And like mine....it does not have the sail number on the hog at all.

I am pretty sure mine F2942 (2956) also has chromed screws and chromed horse.

All in all this boat looks very like mine....although mine is Mk1. I think this must be a late Fairey boat and 3255 would make sense for that

I am sure you are right....the shell number must be 3255, but do please confirm that it has horizontal veneers on outside.

cheers

eib

[Garry R]

When I had Vivette 937 there was 937 carved in the hog. The plate had vanished long since. The sail number was also 937 and Peter Lanham of the Firefly Owners Association was able to give me a fair bit of history including an old photo of her sailing in a Nationals in 1972 with the 937 sail number. So basically I am a bit confused between these different numbers and what actually dictates the sail number in particular.

[Rupert]

The number in the hog SHOULD be the sail number. The number (fairly faint) on the transom will be the batch (hull) number, but this is easily sanded off.

[Michael Brigg]

The Brass makers plate is usually on the transom, and carries both numbers. The Brass plate however is not stamped until after a class (sail) number has been allocated, so the Hull number is initially stamped onto the Hog, in 3/4inch (I think) die.

The orientation is variable as it is not technically part of the Class identification and is really a manufacture/stock control number. The Class number is the sail number, and is not allocated until the boat is sold. Think of it as Chassis number as opposed to the number plate.

But Garry said...

So basically I am a bit confused between these different numbers and what actually dictates the sail number in particular.

In practice the two would often be close, because not many hulls were wasted. Several hulls were exported however, and I believe some made for the forces overseas in Libya/Malta were not allocated class numbers, but will of course have had Hull numbers.

The hulls were turned out 6 at a time from the autoclave and then stacked up against the wall to be sold off the peg. There is there for a built in randomisation of the Hull number + or - 6, relative to the allocated sail number, in addition to a constant but slowly accumulating factor, where perhaps a hull was not sold or damaged and so not used.

The sail numbers on the Hog are only found in boats that have been additionally branded since @1980 to conform to a new class rule to identify the hull by the Sail letter (F) and number in permanent lettering, not less than 30mm high.

Is it clear now?

[Michael Brigg]

Oh! and painted on the transom is the name Dylan and the letters BSSC

I got the Club wrong.

Two google hits on "BSSC":-

Black Swan SC in Reading; Mike Hudson, the class chairman from 1977-1980 was registered in the 1988 handbook at this club. Would seem to suggest they may have had a core strength of Fireflies at this time. Perhaps they may find Dylan in their records. There were lots of Fireflies based @ the Thames corridor so this would be one of my eatly lines of enquiry.

http://www.bssc.co.uk/

Then there's "Brancaster Staithe SC" on the North Norfolk coast. Brrrr! Never heard of them but the website looks pretty lively and has a forum where perhaps you could post a query

http://www.bssc.net/

My other thought was "Bradfield School Sailing Club" especially as the boat has been neglected for a while, subjected to amateur repairs perhaps and possibly sustained damage in team racing. Its not a listed club but there were a few boats registered to them in the 1982 and 1988 handbook although I note they fashion themselves "Bradfield College." (Typical private school aspiration!! Any comments AG??)

Happy hunting!

[Ancient Geek]

Shame on you Dr Brigg!
Brancaster Staithe is the UK home of that flkating gaff rigged coffin that can sail on wet grass the 12Sq Metre Sharpie - an Olympic Class up untill the 1960 games.
As to School Sailing we were RYA Affiliated I know some schools did not bother.
Do you ever do the Public Schoold Old Boys?