Early Int. Moth info.

an area to discuss dinghy developments
Post Reply
solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal » Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:25 pm

Hi everone,

A question: When the Moth class split in this country, the International Moth initially continued to use the "M" in a circle insignia until eventually adopting the black moth silhouette. I had a Europa moth with the "M" insignia and a "K" number (K2332 I think).
Looking back through old magazines from the early '60's I have never seen an International Moth with a sail number below 2000......and I am an avid reader of all old ads, and have also (unfortunately) been around long enough to remember any low sail numbers. Would I be right in thinking that a decision was made to start UK registered International Moths at the number 2000 (or thereabouts) to save confusion with the British Moth (bearing in mind they were sharing the same insignia at this point)?
I used to sail Moths many years ago (never raced, purely for fun......no comments please ) and am interested in any info on early boats.....I used to enjoy looking at the archives on the Moth site, but I haven't been able to access this for some time.........does anyone know if this will be available again at some point?

Thanks, Sami.
Sami.

davidh
Posts: 3164
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:43 am
Location: Ventor Isle of Wight

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by davidh » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:51 pm

HI Sami,

I'll ask Ian (Ridge) as he has a wealth of knowledge on the Moths (and National 12s). I know that Ian has already made a lot of his pictures available to the IMCA, but he has plenty more.

With regard to the change in the sail insignia, I think it was around the later 1960s/very early 1970s.

D
David H

solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:13 pm

Thanks David......I recognise Ian's name from various things I've read........and I think you're right re the insignia change......I'm guessing '67 when there were major changes, but it would be nice to know some details,

Sami. :)
Sami.

fcdbm
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:51 pm

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by fcdbm » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:35 am

Hi,

Interesting question. I have some Moth Class information, in 2007 I scanned much of Major Tony Hibbert's Moth Class archive and photos. This covers the period in the 1960's and early 70's leading up to the International recognition of the Moth Class by IYRU.

As you may know there were a number of 11ft Moth dinghies sailing in different countries under differing class rules. During the 1960s there was a great desire to create an International Moth Class and much work was done to organise the various national classes under a single international rule. Major Hibbert played an important role as International, European and UK Class Secretary. He applied his considerable leadership and business skills to assist the officers of the national fleets as the class worked to agree a single rule. This was a formidable achievement when communication was only by letter.

Regarding rigs: Until 1968 there were 2 types. In the UK, USA and Europe there was a one design rig with a 15ft luff, 9ft boom and 85sqft. This was usually set on a bendy Finn type timber mast with fixed foot soft sail - a similar sail is still used on the Europe. In Australia the rig was slightly smaller sail area at 80 sqft, but set on a 17ft luff, with a shorter boom and fully battened loose footed sail. These were set on aluminium masts with forestay and shrouds.

At the 1968 worlds in Cannes it was agreed that both rigs could race. There was also considerable interest in whether the Aussie scow designs would outpace the French, British and USA narrow designs.

The Worlds was won by Marie Claude Faroux. See Simon Payne's website for photo of the prize giving. http://sipayne.blogspot.com/2010/12/nic ... eview.html. She sailed a narrow Faroux design, designed by her father. The 1969 USA and 1970 Australian worlds were subsequently won by Dave McKay of Australia in his blisteringly fast scow.

At the 1968 Worlds AGM it was agreed to move to Aussie style rig and the sail measurement rules were amended. The Aussie Moth logo was also adopted. The design train that has gone on to develop the Class was set in motion.

The Class received provisional IYRU recognition in November 1970 and full IYRU recognition in 1st September 1972.

As an aside:
Major Hibbert's story is an interesting one, he was captured at Arnhem http://www.pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/tony_hibbert.htm.
He escaped and helped liberate Kiel and hold it against the russians http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10356336. On leaving the army he was very successful in business. Living in Lymington he founded Salterns Sailing Club. He retired to Cornwall to Trebah House, and has spent the last 29 years restoring the gardens http://www.trebahgarden.co.uk/history_of_trebah_rej.htm

Tony Hibbert still has an interest in the Class, including visiting the 2007 nationals and the worlds in 2008.

davidh
Posts: 3164
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:43 am
Location: Ventor Isle of Wight

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by davidh » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:04 pm

Sami,

some time ago I started work on a Dinghy Designer Family Tree (very much in line with the Rock Family Trees as seen on BBC2) and it would have been out in the real world as a wall chart had things gone to plan.

One of the complexities of the chart surrounded the Moths, for when you started to look at who designed what - and where their influences came from, you ended up with something more akin to a map of London Bus Routes (and the underground, taxi routes and flight paths into Heathrow all inclusive).

I'm just working on a Moth related article that will appear in Y&Y in an issue or two......

D
David H

User avatar
Nessa
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:16 pm
Location: East Angular

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Nessa » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:35 pm

I'm waiting for the weekend when I hope to find the original sail from the MOGO. I still think it had moth ancestry, so it'll be interesting to see if the sail has a logo.
The Peril
Agamemnon
Lovely little Cadet
OK 1954
Xena Warrior Princess
Finn 469
Laser 2
Wayfarer World

solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:21 am

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies......all very interesting, especially from fcdbm (so formal :) )... I knew some of the facts, but you have filled in some important blanks, very much appreciated. Also good to hear that the Major has been taking an interest, at what must be a fair age now!
The first thing that springs to mind is that the earlier IMs were referred to as International way before Major Hibbert's efforts in the late '60s.....having the K insignia with the old M logo in the early 60's, which is something I have never quite understood.
David....An article on Moths....how interesting......I had been thinking of having a go myself, but it sounds as though there is a mountain of research......so I'll wait patiently to see the result of your toil. :D
Nessa....I had a look at Mogo on here a short while ago and was wondering if the hull could be based on the Nymph dinghy? I had an article on one in an old '60s Light Craft, but I seem to have mislaid some of my precious magazines (too many house moves) so I can't check it out. (I also lost a test report on the Toy, very annoying having just bought the eBay one!) I will await with interest to see if your sail has an N on it (in a quite delicate style of font).

Sami.
Sami.

davidh
Posts: 3164
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:43 am
Location: Ventor Isle of Wight

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by davidh » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:48 am

HI Sami,

even if the magazines indulge me again by giving space for a double length article (as they did with the GP14) for a development class such as the Moth this is just not enough to really tell the story! The story of the Moth, if you go back to the early beginnings as a North American lake boat, is both lengthy and convoluted- trying to document this within the confines of a word count just results in a superficial 'overview' - or worse, an article that is beset by big holes in the information. The other issue (speaking now as a writer) is that as yet I've yet to discern an 'angle'; just writing about one particular class might be of interest to those who are part or present followers, but then it fails to make the move to attract a wider following.

You are right about the research - it is a long and tiresome task but in the end it is the only way - other magazines have carried some interesting articles that have been spoilt by a poor collection of the facts. We had this gremlin come up on the forum just before christmaswith regard to the issue of trapezes (and Ian Proctors involvement)....you really do need your facts to be spot on in this game!

But back to the subject of the Moth - have you thought of a particular 'angle' - something that sets the class up and above the rest and will be of interest beyond the ranks of Moth sailors? I'm always open to ideas so if there is something for me to go after, point me in the right direction!!

D
David H

solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:18 pm

Hi David,
Hmm, give me a while to think about that.......been up since 3am and not at my best at present, but watch this space .......
Sami.

User avatar
Nessa
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:16 pm
Location: East Angular

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Nessa » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:42 pm

Sami, I did look at the Nymph when trying to identify the MOGO, and it is similar, but rthen it's also similar to all the other weird and sometimes wonderful little Blandford designs! I think it is/was some kind of mutant homebuilt hybrid, we will see.

Nessa
The Peril
Agamemnon
Lovely little Cadet
OK 1954
Xena Warrior Princess
Finn 469
Laser 2
Wayfarer World

solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:42 pm

Hi Nessa,

Yes, my immediate feeling was that it was a home-build/modified something-or-other.......but as you say, we shall see :)
Sami.

User avatar
PeterV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Locks Heath, Hampshire

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by PeterV » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:32 pm

Paul Elvstrom's book 'Expert dinghy and keelboat racing' (1967) has a sequence of photos of a strong wind Moth race. Boats are numbered 265, 313, 2610 and K2352, K2353, K2612, K2512.
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash

solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:41 pm

Thanks Peter,

I think the low numbers will be British Moth's, and the higher ones Int. prior to all the changes. Interestingly there are no numbers between 1000 and 2000.
Sami.

solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:11 pm

Hi David,

You would think that magazines would be eager to get some in depth articles to help sell on the Highstreet in this age of "online everything", but I take your point about not being able to get the whole story told.
With regards to an "angle".... my immediate thought is to use the Moth story as a vehicle to explain modern boat development in general, and reach a wider readership. Whilst it would be difficult to proclaim that various boats were inspired by Moth development (or vice-versa) without a lot of research, (and even then it would probably open up some hot debate), I think you could approach it from the "back-street-heroes" sort of angle. Moths were always the DIY water-borne hot-rod/student project held together with chewing gum and sticky-backed plastic (at least most of the ones I owned/remember in the early '70s were), so how about an affectionate look at the past whilst referring to the general similarities in development ideas from the budget point of view? That should satisfy the older readers, and maybe inspire some youngsters to have a go (seeing as how foilers cost a fortune).......maybe we could see a revival in "old Skool low-riders"? :)
Sami.

davidh
Posts: 3164
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:43 am
Location: Ventor Isle of Wight

Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by davidh » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:01 pm

Sam,Just the week before the festive shut down I interviewed John Claridge and he made the same point as you - that so many of the boats were home built and as a way to fast track development, the Moth was the place to be. Problem is - is that relevent to the dinghy sailor of today (see below) - I hate to say it but the chances are you'd struggle on that one.

The difficulty in writing for a wider audience - as in the mainstream magazines, is that you have to keep remembering that you are not looking to ' reward' the enlightened few but instead to need to take the wider - and at times less informed and uncoommitted with you. The question at every full stop is "can I get away with this - is it relevant?"

And finally there is the dreaded pressure of available space. A quick look at a current magazine tells the story - feature space is at a premium! Take out the monthly columns, the 'how to do it' tips for activities ashore and afloat, boat tests and gear guides and the remaining space has to be targetted.

Interestingly, I've probably got topics ready to go that would be just what you're talking about - I've a nice piece entitled 'What happened to Bob the Builder' - which looks in some detail at some championship winning boats that were made at home and asks the question about the demise of the amateur home builder. The difficulty is getting an outlet for these.....

But back to the Moths:Talking with Ian Ridge in the pub the other evening put things into perspective. Those home built Moth hulls that were put together on the beach at the start of an Open or Nationals have been replaced by high tech hulls that can cost as much as a Merlin Rocket.. Yes, there are still sailors who can produce a home made hull but how many have the facilities to lay up pre-preg carbon and then vacum bag and bake the result. It is an interesting development that the Moths, for so long the class where 'anything goes' was the byword, are now looking to curtail the wing mast and are now talking about moves to limit the runaway cost escalation that is being seen.

There is an article in there somewhere as well BUT... it is back to the numbers game. It may happen, watch this space!!

D
David H

Post Reply