Early Int. Moth info.

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Nessa
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Nessa » Mon May 02, 2011 8:03 pm

I saw the axeman go out today - or rather attempt to. It capsized roughly every five minutes, which I thought was pretty good given the conditions. It was really gusty. i don't know what he was thinking of. :roll:
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by PaulM » Thu May 19, 2011 5:24 pm

After all that earlier enthusiasm, this thread has slipped a long way.....

'Imperium' was designed by David 'Shorty' McKay and he won the 1970 Worlds in NZ and '71 in Europe; it was a double-chine develoment of the 1960s Peter Cole cold-moulded design. Geoff Osmond used to build them in Cornwall and some firm briefly did them in GRP in 1975; there were several at the '76 Nationals at Plymouth.

I could write more on scow history but I won't just now........

For Nessa's amusement while training her bionic arm, I might do a little page about the Magnum design's development somewhere.


Paul

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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by davidh » Thu May 19, 2011 7:12 pm

paul,

am just 'passing through' on here but thought you might like to see the enclosed - I'm sure he won't mind me copying it! It is from Mervyn Cook, the designer of the Magnum, in response to the Y&Y article:

"Hello David

It is always a fact that he who is brave enough to actually 'do' something will always get flack from those who didn't. I'm very grateful to you for the article and the recognition, and it will certainly be something I treasure for the rest of my life.

I will try to make sure the modern fleet includes the article in their (excellent) archive. It's all part of how they got where they have. Just like my first sail in a Fragniere Moth, back in about 1962... these things sew the seeds of thought!"

Sadly, the INt Moth class, on the whole, seem less than enthusiastic about any formal recording of their history. This is such a crying shame as there is so much there that is important not just to the Moths but as I pointed out, to the bigger picture of dinghy sailing!

I hear that the guy who was doing the Moth arhive is heading off to the US - this could be behind the loss of some of the material

D
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Rupert
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Rupert » Thu May 19, 2011 7:56 pm

I'm really hoping that come August Bank Holiday we can get a few of you Moths out for a play at Whitefriars - of course, there will be a few Minisails out there too, I hope (possibly...certainly one...) - the challenge to the Moths - can any of you beat all the Minisails on the water?! I'll buy a pint on the Sunday night for anyone who can before then!
Rupert

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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by solentgal » Sun May 22, 2011 5:24 pm

This is challenging Rupert.........I may be inspired to hurry up on the Europa Moth........it's pretty much next on the list, house sale and health permitting........think the Doc may be finally sorting me out so maybe I'll have the energy to get on again soon....so that leaves me about 2 months to get the work done..........Hmmm :?
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Nessa
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Nessa » Sun May 22, 2011 6:20 pm

I've got a feeling I'm in Holland then, hopefully attempting a sail in the C boat....shame...
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by PaulM » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:37 pm

John Claridge's own website has a couple of photos, of the first Magnum 2 K-3583 'Magnanimous' and the aforementioned Phobia K-3769 'Gynaephobia'.

http://cargocollective.com/jcbb#655997/History

Also there is a link to David's Y&Y article:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27435340/True%20Icons.pdf

Looking back at an article in Y&Y from late 1973, it seems it was Chris Eyre and Chris Edwards ('72 Euro. champ) that came up with the forestay spreader known as a 'prodder' ; also ISTR that John Claridge didn't use WEST epoxy generally until about 1979, after Richard Hargreaves had been the first to finish his kit Magnum 3 with it in 1977 - all the Magnum 2s and early 3s were pre-WEST, which is probably why so few survived, as they went soft.

The second bulkhead in the Magnums, BTW, supports the daggerboard case, not the aft wing tubes which are attached to the rudder post on the centreline.

Paul
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Nigel
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Nigel » Sat Jun 04, 2011 12:07 pm


PaulM
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by PaulM » Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:54 pm

That's the Womble Mk2 that I flagged up in the 'for sale' section...............shame Scotland is so far, what with it having a trailer as well.

Paul

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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Southern377 » Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:36 pm

and another.........too new??.........but not Up North!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/International-Mot ... 3cb8a1f5ac

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Chris 249
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Chris 249 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:42 pm

With the greatest of respect to David and his excellent article, the Magnum's win in New Zealand certainly didn't end the reign of the scows as such. Down here the scow still reigned supreme for several years after that 1980 win, with Glenn Hammond's Magnum becoming very prominent but not being able to consistently win titles. In contrast, scows dominated most of the racing with Greg Hilton's scow taking the '82 worlds with the first skiff something like 30th with several DNSs (if memory serves).

From the Oz perspective the change happened in the windy '86 worlds, held on the wild waters of South Australia, where Steve Shimeld won in a Magnum-style skiff from Emmett Lazich, also in a Magnum-style skiff. That was the turning point for the scow down here where it was always dominant, because it was the first time the skiffs won in a classic heavy-air series. This is well attested to by contemporary reports and interviews with guys like Steve.

I got into a Magnum-style skiff for that series but ended up returning the boat before the worlds because the guy I bought it from didn't do the repairs he said he would. Those in skiffs were definitely in the minority down here at the time. Afterwards everyone knew that a new breed of sailor and boat had taken over.

The skiff takeover was a major blow to the popularity of the class here. The scows were fantastic fun to sail, pretty much no matter how good you were, in flat water and a breeze. The skiffs were not able to attract enough people to have the same sort of fleet racing at club level.

David's comment in the article that "it is no accident that many of the boats featured in
this series have come from the development classes" shows how divergent views can be about this sort of thing. I think if I had to list the 10 iconic dinghies I'd struggle to include more than 2 or 3 development classes in a list including the Snipe, Laser, Finn, FD, Mirror, Sharpie, etc.

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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Rupert » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:44 pm

Chris, the idea of the series was iconic individual dinghies, rather than classes of dinghy, so it isn't surprising that the boats featured either come from development classes or from one designs with tolerances big enough for a designer or builder to do enough tweaking to bring something special out of a design.

What you say about the skiff reducing the popularity of the class is very interesting. In retrospect maybe it is a shame that there wasn't a break away to a scow based Moth at the time.
Rupert

PaulM
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by PaulM » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:42 pm

While Dave Iszatt's 1980 worlds win didn't cause an immediate switch to skiffs, it was the first worlds where there was a mix of conditions AND a good number of top sailors from both hemispheres; previously there had always been a preponderence of scows in Pacific champs and skiffs in European ones.

It's only fair to point out that the 1984 worlds in Japan were also in mixed conditions and were won by Robin Wood from the UK, and that by then I think most of the top Aussies were in skiffs.

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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by PaulM » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:00 pm

This thread has gone very quiet, and I don't know whether David H is working on a Moth history somewhere, so here is my 'History of the Magnums' compilation, made up from pics on the old Moth UK website.

The Magnum in 1974 had the basic hull shape, no flares, wood wings with lots of frames inside, a self-draining cockpit, and shrouds to the wings; it nosedived, flexed, leaked and was heavy.

Next came the Magnalium in early '75, with the hull made 6" wider at the transom, flares to the topsides, shrouds to the hull, tubular wings attached to the kingpost and rudder-post, and a footwell cockpit.

The Magnum 2 in late '75 reverted to the original hull shape with the new deck layout; it can be distinguished from later models by having a short single chine at the transom without overlap. This photo of the first one shows the flares braced with ribs and the wooden rudder-stock and tiller, also the kink in the rear of the wing tubes to take them over the outside corners of the transom; but the use of wire loops to carry the mainsheet blocks and kicker on the boom started here.

More to follow.

Paul
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Nessa
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.

Post by Nessa » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:15 pm

asp posted in the boat chat thread, my magnum has chosen to dislodge it's lower rudder pintles. A horrid looking repair job that I am not looking forward to.

The history is great Paul, keep it up!
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