Early Int. Moth info.
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
If you can, take a look at page 132 of the 1958 Dinghy Year Book. It shows that there was always much confusion, as there is a picture of the BM champ sailing an American (Connecticut) Moth alongside the BM article, saying that Bossoms were building them. Sail No 275.
Rupert
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
Rupert...
My first BM was 296... it weighed a ton and was NOT the best of boats for southampton water!
D
My first BM was 296... it weighed a ton and was NOT the best of boats for southampton water!
D
David H
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
275 isn't a BM and isn't using a BM sail. Maybe an American number?
Rupert
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
I had BM250 and agree with David that it did not suit the short cop of the Solent at all,I changed it for a Nervous Breakdown IM with collar unstayed mast and that was a different story altogether when I could keep the rig in the air, which made the name of the design very apt especially downwind on anything deeper than a broad reach..
GBR74 ex custodian of
GBR384 Mickey Finnale (Taylor,wood)
GBR455 Rubber Duck (Taylor, grp)
FD GBR350 Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious
GBR384 Mickey Finnale (Taylor,wood)
GBR455 Rubber Duck (Taylor, grp)
FD GBR350 Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
Hi, Thanks for the kind comments about my contribution.
I too have been researching the 1960s and early 1970s development of the Class. My angle had been to look at how the different national fleets were brought together under a common rule and then the spark that it gave to ignite design development. The free market in design ideas
In the Hibbert collection there are all the newsletters reporting progress and the debates as the constitution and design rules were put together. I have found examples of an early Farr design, masses of photographs showing designs and details, a design by Russell Bowler. I hesitate to post them as I would wish get Tony Hibbert's approval.
There are also the IYRU politics to consider, many of the member countries were eastern european and therefore the support of some communist bloc countries was required if International recognition was to be achieved. The Czechslovakian Fleet was important in this respect. The 1969 Europeans were held there, one of the 1968 class newsletters stated that the regatta would still go ahead, despite the Russian invasion...The Skol was designed by a Czech who came west.
I wryly wonder if there is more or less national self interest in the selection of international fleets today?
I was very struck at the quality of the 1960 boats, many were cold moulded, for example by McCutcheon and these were elegant examples of craftmanship. The swiss lake boats had beautifully made unstayed timber masts. The French found ways of torturing ply into exotic fast shapes and they carefully kept the knowledge their side of the Channel.
The design explosion did lead to some tacky construction, but there were many well built hulls particularly by Claridge, Salterns and Rondar and then the later Bloodaxe boats. Rigs were more fragile, such as the skinny Sparlight DQ2. The Proctor C sections and Needlespars proved more resilient. Early wing design was less successful, the balance between lightness, structural strength and fabrication finesse took time to get right.
The boats failed as they were light, and also became outclassed, then sold on to new less experienced owners. Stitch and glue with polyester resin didn't help either. Carbon fibre was only used in jet engines (badly) and epoxy didn't arrive until 1978.
There was a quest for a good quality light and simple single hander in the early 70's, the SKOL provided it for a while, but then the Laser arrived on the market. I still remember comparing the finish, quality and ease of use of my brother's Laser with the high maintenance and 'diyness' of my Moth. But in terms of lightness and fun the Moth still won.
Clearly there is an opportunity and story to be had. I would be pleased to share my notes if you are interested.
Finally which designs did I own....
A Lucky Sixpence - cost nearly a months wages.
Then a Mistral, super robust and fast.
Then an old Skol 2.
And now a Skol 3, awaiting sorting.
Best 60/70s design??? Twora scow, or a Shelley Mark 3 or a sorted Skol.
I too have been researching the 1960s and early 1970s development of the Class. My angle had been to look at how the different national fleets were brought together under a common rule and then the spark that it gave to ignite design development. The free market in design ideas
In the Hibbert collection there are all the newsletters reporting progress and the debates as the constitution and design rules were put together. I have found examples of an early Farr design, masses of photographs showing designs and details, a design by Russell Bowler. I hesitate to post them as I would wish get Tony Hibbert's approval.
There are also the IYRU politics to consider, many of the member countries were eastern european and therefore the support of some communist bloc countries was required if International recognition was to be achieved. The Czechslovakian Fleet was important in this respect. The 1969 Europeans were held there, one of the 1968 class newsletters stated that the regatta would still go ahead, despite the Russian invasion...The Skol was designed by a Czech who came west.
I wryly wonder if there is more or less national self interest in the selection of international fleets today?
I was very struck at the quality of the 1960 boats, many were cold moulded, for example by McCutcheon and these were elegant examples of craftmanship. The swiss lake boats had beautifully made unstayed timber masts. The French found ways of torturing ply into exotic fast shapes and they carefully kept the knowledge their side of the Channel.
The design explosion did lead to some tacky construction, but there were many well built hulls particularly by Claridge, Salterns and Rondar and then the later Bloodaxe boats. Rigs were more fragile, such as the skinny Sparlight DQ2. The Proctor C sections and Needlespars proved more resilient. Early wing design was less successful, the balance between lightness, structural strength and fabrication finesse took time to get right.
The boats failed as they were light, and also became outclassed, then sold on to new less experienced owners. Stitch and glue with polyester resin didn't help either. Carbon fibre was only used in jet engines (badly) and epoxy didn't arrive until 1978.
There was a quest for a good quality light and simple single hander in the early 70's, the SKOL provided it for a while, but then the Laser arrived on the market. I still remember comparing the finish, quality and ease of use of my brother's Laser with the high maintenance and 'diyness' of my Moth. But in terms of lightness and fun the Moth still won.
Clearly there is an opportunity and story to be had. I would be pleased to share my notes if you are interested.
Finally which designs did I own....
A Lucky Sixpence - cost nearly a months wages.
Then a Mistral, super robust and fast.
Then an old Skol 2.
And now a Skol 3, awaiting sorting.
Best 60/70s design??? Twora scow, or a Shelley Mark 3 or a sorted Skol.
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.
My son 15 year old son was mightily impressed with the Moth at the last Open we attended at Shearwater.
So much so that he has mentioned it a couple of times this winter, whilst both our boats are laid up.
We will have to give it some careful thought this year when he gives up his Cadet......Moth, National 12 or Firefly....All got to be classic/vintage of course....
So much so that he has mentioned it a couple of times this winter, whilst both our boats are laid up.
We will have to give it some careful thought this year when he gives up his Cadet......Moth, National 12 or Firefly....All got to be classic/vintage of course....
Steve Hawkins
1967 National 12 2383 "Sparkle"
1967 National 12 2383 "Sparkle"
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
hi Fcdbm
Thanks very much for all the info (isn't this forum amazing for this sort of thing... detail you'd not get elsewhere!) and I've begun to see the germ of an idea forming in my mind! Will you be coming to the Dinghy Show in March? If not - where are you located.... I'm thinking of getting you and Ian Ridge together, I'll get Ian to bring his scrap books along and we can pick up the story from there.
In the meantime, patience ever patience... there is a new issue of Y&Y out in the next day or so, then two issues after that I think there will be something that will very much be of interest for you!
The downside is that your posting on the opic, whilst very interesting, has just highlighted the very problem that is at the heart of the moth story. In three paragraphs you've mentioned a dozen boats or designers, all of whom played a part in the development of the boat (or, conversely, were influenced by what they did in the moth). For example - Bruce Farr; where does his moth building slot into his other dinghy work, does it predate his Cherubs or was it how he cut his teeth design wise.
Because it was so easy to knock up a hull, people did, so designs came and went, which ones need documenting and which were design dead ends?
I've got some of the details of the scow designs that Peter Milne produced, fast, successful boats but you could at the same time point to these as being a road to nowhere....
I encountered something of this problem with the book on the Contender (and know for sure that the 505 will cause the same problem) - the story is not about the Moth in the UK, but has to be about the INternational aspect of the class, which means collecting stories and information from around the world. This was a task enough with a boat that is pretty much a one design... for a boat like the moth, with the Czech boats, Swiss lake boats, Aussie Scows, the UK designs - not to mention the boats that came out of the US, New Zealand - suddenly charting the development becomes a major task. And- from hard experience, anything more than a quick overview has to really be about the people and their boats, else the story will be a booring litany of who designed what!
Sounds a task but as I said, let's meet up at the dinghy show or somewhere around here and see what parts of the jogsaw are in place already!
D
Thanks very much for all the info (isn't this forum amazing for this sort of thing... detail you'd not get elsewhere!) and I've begun to see the germ of an idea forming in my mind! Will you be coming to the Dinghy Show in March? If not - where are you located.... I'm thinking of getting you and Ian Ridge together, I'll get Ian to bring his scrap books along and we can pick up the story from there.
In the meantime, patience ever patience... there is a new issue of Y&Y out in the next day or so, then two issues after that I think there will be something that will very much be of interest for you!
The downside is that your posting on the opic, whilst very interesting, has just highlighted the very problem that is at the heart of the moth story. In three paragraphs you've mentioned a dozen boats or designers, all of whom played a part in the development of the boat (or, conversely, were influenced by what they did in the moth). For example - Bruce Farr; where does his moth building slot into his other dinghy work, does it predate his Cherubs or was it how he cut his teeth design wise.
Because it was so easy to knock up a hull, people did, so designs came and went, which ones need documenting and which were design dead ends?
I've got some of the details of the scow designs that Peter Milne produced, fast, successful boats but you could at the same time point to these as being a road to nowhere....
I encountered something of this problem with the book on the Contender (and know for sure that the 505 will cause the same problem) - the story is not about the Moth in the UK, but has to be about the INternational aspect of the class, which means collecting stories and information from around the world. This was a task enough with a boat that is pretty much a one design... for a boat like the moth, with the Czech boats, Swiss lake boats, Aussie Scows, the UK designs - not to mention the boats that came out of the US, New Zealand - suddenly charting the development becomes a major task. And- from hard experience, anything more than a quick overview has to really be about the people and their boats, else the story will be a booring litany of who designed what!
Sounds a task but as I said, let's meet up at the dinghy show or somewhere around here and see what parts of the jogsaw are in place already!
D
David H
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
Steve, the Moth at Shearwater was a British Moth. If he is serious about having a go in one, I'll pass on Roger Witt's details to you - he is very keen to let people try them out, and is only based at Frampton. He might find SCSC a little too open for the BM to be too competitive except in very light winds, though.
Fcbdm,
great to read more about the Moths, especially the politics. I had a Skol 2, but sold it to Matt Andrews (JPA's son) as I found my old creaky knees couldn't cope with the balancing down wind. Sadly I now sail more stable boats.
Fcbdm,
great to read more about the Moths, especially the politics. I had a Skol 2, but sold it to Matt Andrews (JPA's son) as I found my old creaky knees couldn't cope with the balancing down wind. Sadly I now sail more stable boats.
Rupert
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
I'm not sure how early Farr *International* Moths were, but New Zealand Restricted Moths were amongst his very earliest designs (ie teens), and the first Farr boats sailed by folks other than himself were NZ Restricted Moths. I don't know what relationship the NZ restricted Moth has to the International: never managed to work that out!davidh wrote: Bruce Farr; where does his moth building slot into his other dinghy work, does it predate his Cherubs or was it how he cut his teeth design wise.
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Re: Early Int. Moth info.
Hello happy new year.
Some early international moths (including an aluminium one from gouget) on this website
http://www.aammlr.com/petitplaisance/pe ... mars08.pdf
From the times when moths were cheap DIY boy's racer made in garages with mommy stitching the sails from old bedsheets...
enjoy!
Some early international moths (including an aluminium one from gouget) on this website
http://www.aammlr.com/petitplaisance/pe ... mars08.pdf
From the times when moths were cheap DIY boy's racer made in garages with mommy stitching the sails from old bedsheets...
enjoy!
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
Laser Tourist...thank you very much for the link - the pictures are amazing. Sadly, this just reinforces the point that I was making earlier...that there has been so much developoment in the class that documenting it would be a nightmare.
Jim C.... has anyone done a 'life and times' book on Bruce Farr? The more I dig into the subject of sailing history, the more I keep finding his name cropping up in all sorts of dinghy sailing related topics. Maybe one for you there.
On a related subject Jim, will drop you a PM about Greg Gregory.... should be done in the next 10 mins
D
Jim C.... has anyone done a 'life and times' book on Bruce Farr? The more I dig into the subject of sailing history, the more I keep finding his name cropping up in all sorts of dinghy sailing related topics. Maybe one for you there.
On a related subject Jim, will drop you a PM about Greg Gregory.... should be done in the next 10 mins
D
David H
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
More notes from the archive.
The first aussie rules Moth in New Zealand Pururi in 1963 designed and built by Hal Wagstaff. The New Zealand Moth Class was a one design but they allowed Pururi to race.
This lead to a NZ Restricted Moth Fleet.
The Farr Brothers of Leigh scored a great success in the leading the combined Moth Regatta at Browns Bay. (Sea Spray, undated but estimated at 1964) Plans available from Bruce Farr, Box 51 Leigh.
Pururi Moth article attached. (I hope this works as it is an scanned and resized document.)
The first aussie rules Moth in New Zealand Pururi in 1963 designed and built by Hal Wagstaff. The New Zealand Moth Class was a one design but they allowed Pururi to race.
This lead to a NZ Restricted Moth Fleet.
The Farr Brothers of Leigh scored a great success in the leading the combined Moth Regatta at Browns Bay. (Sea Spray, undated but estimated at 1964) Plans available from Bruce Farr, Box 51 Leigh.
Pururi Moth article attached. (I hope this works as it is an scanned and resized document.)
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
The Farr Moth.
A sweet design.
David - I will send you a CD of the info if you feel you might be able to use some of the information.
A sweet design.
David - I will send you a CD of the info if you feel you might be able to use some of the information.
- Attachments
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- Farr Moth 1964.jpg
- (21.22 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
The Shape of Speed, John Bevan Smith, Reed Books NZ, ISBN 0 7900 0691 X. Both Farr and Bowlerdavidh wrote:has anyone done a 'life and times' book on Bruce Farr?
Re: Early Int. Moth info.
Farr Article
- Attachments
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- Farr Moth 1964.jpg
- (21.22 KiB) Not downloaded yet