What kind of Moth is that?

an area to discuss dinghy developments
Ditta
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:34 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by Ditta » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:50 pm

A big Thank to all of your suggestions and comments.
Thank you for the invite to sail. I'd love to, but give me a chance to get her in a flaoting stage first - I suspect this will not be the case until at least the summer. Currently she has more holes than a decent sieve.

Yes, got the wings and the photos of the SKOL certainly look very similar, if not at all the same from above.
I had a go at measuring her yesterday.
Overall length: 336 cm = 11' 0"
Beam with winglets: 164cm = 5'4.5"
Beam without winglets: 138cm = 4'6.3"

Looks like there is a small buoyancy tank forward of the mast step and I suspect she had bags (a la Optimist) shoved under the seats near the transom. There are transom flaps and 2 Bailers.
Mast set up is pretty weird in that there appears to be a peg board on the sole below the mast slot, suggesting that several mast positions for changable mast rake are possible. There are also weird pullies etc that do not appear to work for any sail controls, so it may have been possible to change mast rake very easily on the water.

The other thing we noticed is that she is extremely light. We reckon she is less weighty than a racing Optimist!
Thanks Ditta

I'm attaching more photos and hope that explains what I am failing to describe.
P1170984c.jpg
Plan view showing large deck at back under which buoyancy bags were placed? There are straps to hold some in.
P1170986c.jpg
Peg board

Rod
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: USA

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by Rod » Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:11 pm

Skol looks a likely possibility though I thought the design started off in glass.... or maybe a one-off homebuilt modified Shelly. Builders of yesterday and today still take liberty in modifying Moth designs. Some other pictures of Classic Moth transoms can be found on my blog.

http://www.earwigoagin.blogspot.com/201 ... -city.html
Rod M
Annapolis MD USA

http://www.earwigoagin.blogspot.com
http://cbifda.blogspot.com/

Classic Moth: 105
PK Dinghy

Spiderman
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:25 pm

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by Spiderman » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:13 pm

Hi Ditta and fellow Moth sleuths,
Well your boat has certainly generated a wave of interest and we now have some differing opinions as to what design she might be. I am going to stick with my original suggestion that she may be a Shelley derivative, but as Rod says may have been amateur built (many of them were) which may account for some of the Shelley trademarks being less obvious. I still think that the transom shows a hint of a chine which would be more apparent if the topsides were concave as shown on John Shelley's plans. A lot of builders didn't include this feature (my Shelley has straight topsides) as it was easier to build the boat without. As Lyndon has pointed out and I had also spotted, there are two sets of shroud points and the mast slot in the deck is unusually long. This suggests that the boat was built around the time that the UK class was in transition between the IMCA (low aspect) rig and the tall 17 foot luff Aussie rig. The boat was either built to allow a choice of rigs or later modified to accomodate both. The latest pictures showing the alternative mast peg locating holes on the spine is further evidence in support of this. I would suggest that the close spaced holes further forward were for rake/ balance adjustment of the low aspect rig and the seperate hole futher aft would be for the tall rig. The long slot in the foredeck would also permit this degree of choice over rig types and rake settings. Not all Shelleys had a through deck mast foot arrangement and indeed mine hasn't, however, the McCutcheon self drainer I used to sail had a similar through deck set-up and stubby wings. What is really needed to help confirm what design the boat may be are some photos of the underside of the hull so that we can get a better idea of the overall shape. The rocker line and deck planform (ignoring the wings) is very much the same as my Shelley and I also think that the join along the outer edges of the reinforcing layer on the cockpit floor could match the shape of the chines which should extend about 4 feet forward from the transom.
Of course, I could be completely wrong and it may well turn out to be a Skol prototype or something else altogether, but hopefully we will get closer to an answer on this forum topic.
I have tried to upload a couple of pictures that help support my theory, but alas the files are too big.
I will try to add them in a later post.
Whether or not it is a Shelley, it would be great to see you and the boat down at a CVRDA event later in the year.

Best Wishes

Ian M

Ditta
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:34 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by Ditta » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:40 pm

Hi,
again thnks for all of your suggestions. I'll try and get down to her tomorrow to have a look for a number (though I'm not too hopeful). You can see she is not in the best of conditions...
To chine or not to chine? I hope you can see in the photos that she has indeed got a very shallow chine - bot really showing up in the poor quality photos, but I'll try and load them. It does show the main hole beautifully. I guess someone failed to hit the peg bar when trying to mount the mast and she has never sailed since. This may well be 20 years.
Ditta
P1180004c.jpg
Aft view. Very dark, but best way to show slight chine.
P1180006c.jpg
View from the bow. You can just make out chine towards the port sttransom on the left side of the photo.

solentgal
Posts: 466
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:01 pm
Location: twixt Chichester & Pompey

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by solentgal » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:49 pm

I've been following this with great interest.......my thoughts are very much the same as Ian's. I had a look at my pics of the Skol 3 that Jim now owns, that were taken prior to the surgery she has since undergone, and there is certainly a lot of similarity, and she definitely had a slight chine, but the pics don't show it clearly unfortunately.

She looks a very interesting project, hope to see her afloat at some point :)
Sami.

bornagainmothie
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by bornagainmothie » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:55 pm

I think the chine confirms a Shelley influence and the winglets are much like a Skol

Maybe the SKOLLEY has just been discovered? :D

Many moths have sustained damage near the mast step due to serious rig failure where the tension is lost (terminal mast bend???) and the foot of the mast jumps the step. It has to go somewhere and quite often its out through the skin! Certainly fixable though. Could that be what happened to the original mast as its gone?

Lyndon

JimC
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:24 pm
Location: Surrey
Contact:

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by JimC » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:17 pm

bornagainmothie wrote: Maybe the SKOLLEY has just been discovered?
I was more thinking that the Skol design must have come from somewhere, and Rondar probably wouldn't have committed to production without some kind of close model to give some confidence.

Sami, my memory of Skol 3s back in the day (which is admittedly mainly from a single day spent watching one disappear away from what I was sailing round a lake near Southampton in an 8 hour race) is that they were true round bilge, but that's an old memory. The chines on 3517 were definitely a feature of the new wood bottom that the boat had acquired many years before it reached us.

I really need to get on with that boat, but at the moment I am fully booked at home making beds and wardrobes and stuff (and blessing Chris' tip about improvised sash cramps using wedges which has made things much easier!

Spiderman
Posts: 226
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:25 pm

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by Spiderman » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:39 pm

Hi Ditta,
Well for my money the hull pictures that you added confirm my suspicions that your boat is indeed a Shelley and I would hazard a guess at it being a Mk 2 as it looks slightly narrower on the waterline than my Mk 1. I have added a picture of a Shelley taken of a boat in the States. Although slightly different to yours, having a deck stepped mast, it has similar stubby wings with an extra layer of reinforcing ply on the sidedecks. If you look at the writing on the trolley (Alexander Moff 2993) it may be that this boat once belonged to Nick Alexander of UK Moth fame and may have been exported to the States at some point?
I think that your boat number is likely to be somewhere between 2900 and 3100 and registered 1968 to 1971 or thereabouts. As Lyndon has commented, the damage looks relatively minor and easily fixable so provided that the rest of the hull is sound the restoration shouldn't be too daunting a prospect. Thanks for the extra photos and I look forward to seeing more pics if you get time to post some.
I take it that the previous owner hasn't been able to furnish any additional info about the boat's history and how it came to be damaged. Lyndon's theory that it may have been due to shroud failure or even mast breakage seems most likely.
All in all a great find and I am really pleased that you are going to resurrect another classic Moth.

Regards

Ian M
Attachments
Mothclass baconmoth02.jpg

Rod
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: USA

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by Rod » Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:08 am

I like the idea of the Skolley. All indications are that the builder was pushing the Shelly shape to a narrower waterline, more rounded shape (as best as could be accomplished within the broad Shelly shape). George up the street has a Skol he has stripped the deck off. Need to stop by sometime to get some pictures for comparison but if memory serves, I think Jim is right, the Skol was round bilged.

As an aside, Carl Cramer, previously of Woodenboat Magazine has bought a Gen 1 Mint design and a Vintage Ventnor design. His post on his blog is found here;

http://boats.woodenboat.com/?p=3859
Rod M
Annapolis MD USA

http://www.earwigoagin.blogspot.com
http://cbifda.blogspot.com/

Classic Moth: 105
PK Dinghy

Ditta
Posts: 10
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:34 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by Ditta » Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:52 am

A big Thank you to all the helpful comments. So, Skelly it is by the sound of things.
So, what does this mean? I had another good look in the shed and failed to find a sail number carved anywhere. It may be beneath the very faded varnish, but I had a pretty good look. Until I get her into the garage and start stripping the layers back I will not be able to find any more information. I will try and get her up in the next couple of weeks.

If she is unique, what does this mean regarding mast, sail, setup and PYN? So far my sailing prowess has been restricted to much less flexible classes, but I'd like to sail her in our club. They are used to more conventional boats, Musto Skiff to Mirror so I would need at least some idea of handicap if I ever get her out on that mean Northern North Sea.'I'd love to come South with her some time to race with you guys, just leaves to find out how well she fits on the roof bars.
Any advice and help very much appreciated.
Ditta

Rupert
Posts: 6254
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by Rupert » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:01 am

Handicap wise, it is really hard to set an accurate modern handicap without sailing the boat a lot. The early/mid 70's handicap was about 100, which is approx 1140. However, with the boat having aged, and more importantly, all the one design boats having got faster over the years, it would be worth sailing off about 1170 (so you'd have approx 1 minute per hour given to you by a Solo) until you can see whether that makes any sense at all.

Spiderman may have experience of sailing his Shelly in modern handicap races, which might cut down the time spent getting somewhere close.
Rupert

bornagainmothie
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by bornagainmothie » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:59 am

Sorry Ditta, I should have added any sail number would be on the outside of the hull, so port side panel just under deck level and a few inches in from the transom. Its an odd place compared to most conventional classes but with so many different hull and deck shapes and often no hog to carve a number into, it was a position that worked for all.
If she is unique, what does this mean regarding mast, sail, setup and PYN?
Probably not going to order a new rig from the chandlery but a hacksaw and rivet gun will soon get you sailing :wink:

Although Moth hull shapes were widely varied even in the late 60's early 70's era there was not much variation in the rigs, so it should be easy enough to copy and adapt something from a similar aged moth. As your boat seems to have the option to use a low or high aspect rig, you could search for either or both, depending on your preference. Obviously the tall fully battened rig will be more powerful if a little more challenging to keep upright.
Ian's Shelley is a perfect example of a "period" rig of this type. http://earwigoagin.blogspot.co.uk/2012/ ... -2012.html.
Here, Ian is modelling a classic needlespar mast with Anderson Aerosail, as advertised in the moth yearbooks of the time. My Stockholm Sprite has a similar sail made by Tratman&Lowther which was also popular. Both sails are obviously rare today but could I'm sure be re-produced by a sympathetic sailmaker if necessary.

Needlespar masts were typically just under 2" diameter tube with an external track and tapered top section. Rotating with the boom. Length would be dictated by the luff length of the sail plus the step to boom height . Current rules state max mast length as 6250mm or about 20' 6" which would be about right for a keel/spine step arrangement such as yours. Later boats through the 70's and 80's tended to have deck stepped masts so became shorter, and then the narrow designs of the 90's had a high foredeck or rig frame which raised the step to the same height as the boom, consequently only luff length plus a couple of inches. Unfortunately, this would rule out most second hand "Moth" masts for your boat as they would be too short unless sleeved and extended but thats not impossible.
A trip round the dinghy park with a long tape measure might give you some ideas and old masts can be very cheap on ebay, but go for the lightest possible sections.

http://www.moth-sailing.org/download/20 ... nd%202.pdf
As you can see from the measurement form, its not difficult to comply with the moth class rules. You could in fact add some hydrofoils, carbon mast and sleeve-luff sail and turn up at the world championships this year. As long as it measures, its a Moth!

With regards to setup, some earlier discussions that may help:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5161

I will take some measurements and photos of the Sprite mast that may help you .

Regards

Lyndon

JimC
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:24 pm
Location: Surrey
Contact:

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by JimC » Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:53 am

I found this Moth design guide from 1975. Came with my Skol.

Chelsea Morning
designed by M Cook 1970. Hard chine throughout, deep V, narrow entry, flat aft. Suitable helmsmen 8½ - 12½ stone. Competitive design that consistently shows high places in open meetings particularly in heavy winds and seas. All wood construction. Available complete, bare hull, kit or plans. Builder J G Claridge, Lymington, Hants

Dart
designed by Alex Clifton in 1974. Only attended two open meetings at end of season - won the first. Too early yet to gauge full potential. Further details from Alex Clifton, Stevenage, Herts.

Duflos 62
Designed by Benoit Duflos in 1962 but still a very competitive boat. design has won both World and European titles in the past. Round sections throughout. . Suitable helmsmen 9½ - 13 stone. Difficult boat for beginners. Available complete, bare hull, kit. Builders Trott-Streamlyte, Oxshott Surrey also Streamlyte Ltd Lancing Sussex. Glass hull and wood decks or all wood.

Europa
A rather dated design now no longer in production in UK. No longer competitive but ideal beginner's boat for cadets.

Hoploteryx/Demon King
Two designs from Sean Cox, the latter design he sailed to become 1973 UK Champion. Difficult boat to sail well, but obviously very competitive. Very fine U section entry, small chine, flat transom. Suitable 9½ - 11½ stone helmsman. Builder, Sean Cox, Falmouth. All wood.

Lucky Sixpence
designed by C Eyre in 1967. Deep V bow, hard chine, wide transom, large rocker. Suitable 8½ - 12 stone helmsman. A previous national championship winning design but surpassed by some of the latter designs. Suitable for beginners. Available complete, bare hull, kit, plans. Builder D Trott. Plans C Eyre.

Magnum
Latest design from M Cook. Early results very encouraging. Although only one boat of this design attending Open Meetings in 1974 was the most successful individual design on the circuit. Very fine U section with narrow chine at stern, no rocker. For details of availability contact John Claridge.

Mirage.
Latest design from D Chester. Much narrower version of Mistral - not suitable for heavy helmsmen. Too early yet to judge full potential. Plans D Chester

Mistral I and II
Mk I no longer in production. Mk II similar to Duflos but with fuller bow, is a very competitive boat that has shown up well in all recent Open meetings. Not an easy boat to sail. Suitable helmsmen 9½ - 13 stone. All wood construction. Builders M Coates, Whitby, Yorks. Also B Beasley, Iver, Bucks. Plans D Chester. Available complete, bare hull or plans.

Nervous Breakdown.
Designed by C Eyre in 1968. This design won National championship but is difficult to sail well and not really suitable for beginners. Deep V throughout with stepped transom. Suitable 9½ - 12 stone helmsmen. All wood. Available complete, bare hull, kit , plans. Builder D Trott. Plans C Eyre

Poacher
Brown/Eyre design: won European championship in 1973. Competitive boat. Fine U entry, deep throughout, rocker well aft with narrow chine. Builder C Osmond, Newquay, Cornwall. Plans C Eyre

Scows
Imperium, Victorian, Voodoo, Twora.
All of these designs of scows show very fast speed in heavy weather, yet despite the fact that three World championships have been won by scow helmsmen, no one has managed to make this design competitive at the lower wind strengths in the UK. All designs suitable for helmsmen 8-14 stone. Designs vary from round bilge to double chine with concave bottom. Construction: glass, wood and glass, all wood. Builders: write to class secretary.

Shelley Mk I, II, III.
Mk I and II ideal for beginners but surpassed by more recent designs. Mk III design modified to make boat competitive today. Full round section bow, flared aft section with chine. Suitable 8½ - 12½ stone helmsmen. Builders: Mk II (glass) Moth International, Kent. MK III J Claridge.

Skol SL, SD, Mk III.
All glass boats or glass/wood. Slim bow, round bilge, flattening aft. Modified to have wider transom on Mk III. National championship won in SL design a few years ago. When fitted with wings these designs are still competitive. Suitable 8½ - 13 stone helmsman. Suitable for beginners. Available in glass fibre, either shells or hull from John Byrne, Yorkshire.

Stockholm Sprite
designed by C Eyre on 1968. Narrow with hard chine throughout. National championship won with this design and are well placed in all current Open meetings. Suitable 9½ - 12½ stone helmsman. Available complete, bare hull, kit or plans. Builder D Trott. Plans C Eyre. All wood.

Stroller.
designed 1972 but not raced last year against top competition. Round section throughout, could moulded. Suitable 9½ - 13 stone helmsman. Builder W McCutcheon, IOW. All wood.

davidh
Posts: 3166
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:43 am
Location: Ventor Isle of Wight

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by davidh » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:45 am

Jim....

Am laughing here! Hands up the sailor who thought he could go straight from a British Moth to a Duflos - on the sea, with nothing in between! You'll not be that surprised to hear that I struggled and if the truth be know, never really got to terms with the boat except in the nicest of conditions -and not really even then!

Unlike the Ghost Rider Merlin, which felt very wobbly, then stabilised as soon as you started sailing, the Duflos started very wobbly and just got worse. What a shame that they don't do a weight carrying Moth!
D
David H

alan williams
Posts: 1649
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:44 pm
Location: Devon

Re: What kind of Moth is that?

Post by alan williams » Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:02 pm

Hi Dave
I went from helming a Hornet to racing a Chelsea Morning at Mayflower Plymouth with out too many problems.
Cheers Al

Post Reply