What on earth?

an area to discuss dinghy developments
JimC
Posts: 1721
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2004 10:24 pm
Location: Surrey
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Re: What on earth?

Post by JimC »

davidh wrote:with the exception of a few that still do the events (and it is just a few) are all that remains of one of the great classes.
The class is by no means missing in the Portsmouth Yardstick returns. One of the innovations last year in the PY list was to show the number of races each class' PY number has been calculated from, which does give a crude measure of class activity, and probably the only one we are going to get.
The Fireball is easily the most popular of the Trapeze two handers, but the 505 is up there ahead of say 49er, Laser 4000 and B14. The surprise in the list (to me anyway) when I look at it is the Osprey - seems to be third most active trapeze boat in the country between RS800 and RS500. Amazed: when did that happen?
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Sme goes on with the 420's in France , I recently bought (for 1000 €) a ex racing Rondar 420, (Somewhat heavier than the Nautivelas but more durable , complete with two sets of sails including a brand new North italy main + jib , plus cover and trolley (only 10 years , only 3 Years as a regatta boat and 7 years in the hands of a gentle but incompetent owner who hardly sailed it 15 times )....It is a completely different boat from the worn out Lanaverre of 1975 Vintage with a refurbished trailer (Bearings ckanged and chassis rewelded with an arc torch) i sold to finance the Rondar ...and the funny thing is the old but decently refurbshed Lanaverre was sold ...for 1000 €.

Back in the 70's in France a student could afford a ex champion 505 (Parker or Rondar ) , trailer it behind his renault 4L and even beat the ex - owner in a championship ( the new boat being un-tuned and the student being somewhat fitter than the ex owner aged 40 something...).

Nowdays the french 505 class is mainly composed of boat owners in their 60's or even 70's driving big BMW's / Big 4X4 SUV's and no student -owner is around (they cant afford a car , even a twingo nowdays) ...except that the french 505 Class fights hard not to go down the historry drain like the dinosaurs and Irish Deers did...

they devised a scheme called the junior 505 french championship : The 505's are loaned almost free of charge to young club racers (rather inexperienced ones , not even a laser season at national level) for a youth 505 circuit and championship....

They find it a good way to find moderately experienced and physically fit crews with a touch of helmsmen skills...

But still , this rather last ditch scheme tells uch about the state of dinghy sailing in our country...
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

If 28000 is the price for a top notch , championship winning 505...well small wonder people with that sum in their pockets and a mind fo things nautical ...will go for something more substantial than a "round the cans" racing dinghy...

After all 28000 € will buy a brand new 22 Ft RIB + top level scuba equipment and a few extras to dive the most sought after diving sites or a decent 2nd hand blue water 35 ft cruiser which , with some elbow grease, refurbishment and sailing skills can cruise around the world...
Rod
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: USA

Re: What on earth?

Post by Rod »

Another meandering thread - which is the way I like it. We have touched on regional differences in what we like in our racing dinghies and it is more important than people realize. Here in the U.S.A we like our two man dinghies without spinnakers; in the U.K it is reversed. Here in the U.S.A many of our popular one-designs sport untapered masts (the Thistle still uses the Uffa triple-diamond bird-cage!); in the U.K such a crude mast on a dinghy is a non-starter. We like our Dacron sails; in the U.K most racing dinghy classes now have the latest mylar configurations. We in the U.S.A seem to gravitate to the simple and cheap (Hobie, Sunfish) whereas the U.K. prefers more complication (the English International Canoe's always seemed to have 3X the blocks that we Yanks had) and will shell out more of their disposable income for their sport.

English dinghy manufacturers have tried to foist their English home-grown products on us. The Laser/Performance Bahia, Pico, et al never gained a foothold over here and conversely the U.S.A Snipe, Flying Scot, Thistle, even the Star have found little to none success in England. So success and failure of sailing dinghies is much more nuanced than the technical discussions of hull designs, rudder feel and sail planforms.
Rod M
Annapolis MD USA

http://www.earwigoagin.blogspot.com
http://cbifda.blogspot.com/

Classic Moth: 105
PK Dinghy
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Maybe the US distaste for tapered masts originates from the Berlin / Kiel of dubious fame:

Apart from Hitler cold shouldering Jesse Owens , and Leni Riefenstahl making a propaganda film , the '36 games were notorious for the US star sailing team being heavily defeated by the german one.
The germans had tinkered with the previously unsophisticated Marconi (Bermudan ) rig of the Star , in the wake of Manfred Curry 's aerodynamic research.

They eliminated the need for reefing (a time consuming job) by adopting thin tapered masts with a complicated set of shrouds diamonds crosstrees..etc that could be bent in all sort of ways to adjust the power of the star overgrown Mainsail.

Herbulot (the french contender in 1932 and 1936 star class olympics ) an architect by trade but also a talented boat designer and sailmaker (The GB Sceptre Special spinnakers in the 50's America Cup were made by Herbulot in the municipal ballroom of the 14th Paris district by Herbulot and a team of seamstresses) knew very well about the pro's and cons of tapered masts and the intricacies of rig design and mast mechanics.

When he designed the Vaurien (the sailing school workhorse of the Glénans sailing school) he was working on a shoestring budget (the target retail price for this revolutionary plywood , almost no-profit boat was six times lower than the then common Caneton dinghy, and more or less equal to the price of two bicycles) ..he logically selected the cheapest possible mast (just two rather thin boards glued together with a machined groove, outside halyards and almost no taper) but even with a very modest sailplan (9 square metres , a firefly jib + a argonaute mainsail) he had to put strong raked spreaders with a strong fitting on the mast to keep it reasonably reliable the mast gate at foredeck level was there from the start, otherwise the mast would have split at the first gust and herbulot knew it perfectly.


For other , more sophisticated and profit-making boats Herbulot selected hollow masts, inside halyards and "German school " rig refinements.


Some 8 years later , with the GRP era looming, the rival team of the Socoa Sailing centre (Latxague and Lehoerff + Christian Maury, working with Lucien Lanaverre as builder though he knew little about boats but wanted to add another industrial arm to his cooper buisness in Bordeaux) started defining the specs for what they considered the perfect training boat , with the design freedom of molded construction and promises of a maintenance free material.

The 420 was viewed as a modern, faster safer and better Vaurien, with the hull and big buoyancy tanks being the grounbreaking part of the design...but the Socoa team considered something had to be done with the rig too.

They first designed the boat with something lite 12 or 13 Square metres sailplan...
It resulted in a thrilling boat for experts but it was deemed too much for beginners, specially as Socoa sailing school is in a windy part of the bay of Biscay.

They then comitted successful but ultra lightweight Francis Mouvet (and wife) to do the necessary pre production trials.

Mouvet soon cut the sailplan to 10 Sq m (which later relgated the 420 to a youth's boat when trapeze was introduced) but as the boat had to be "modern" and faster then the Vaurien, went for a tapered hollow mast , of course a wooden one, because SW France had plenty of pinewood and Lanaverre had a cooper shop and plenty of skilled manpower in the woodworking
trade.

The early production boats sported a rather strong hollow mast (the square lower part was thick enough to encase four or five sheaves (for the halyards but also for the boom vang, because there is no small savings... and blocks were expensive...and still are) the upper part was masterfully shaped into an aerodynamic tapered shape.

It had no spreaders and no mast gate (the mast gates and travellers were introduced later as bolt-on kit retrofits when the 420 evolved in a regatta boat and then came included as a standard feature).

When the trapeze was allowed (for youth racing ) the spreaders were brought in (first the unefficient cable spreaders and then the slightly stronger stainless steel tubes on
bronze bases )...these were not meant to work and bend he mast and adjust sail shape , jut to limit mast distortions when someone was out on the trapeze wire.

At that point (mid to late 60's with Lanaverre milling some 2 or 3000 boats / year) Aluminium extrusion had become cheap enough to be brought in budget dinghies (with the promise of maintenance free masts that could stay outdoors on a boatpark for long periods) but there was not much choice in extrusion profiles.

In France Marco Polo manufactured untapered chap masts and Proctor made a range of more sophisticated tapered profiles with the labour intensive process of cutting a V, and TIG welding the top of the mast, plus thermic treatment before (gold coloured) anodization...

By then the 420 class had gained international status and racing was booming....most owners converted heir boats to aluminium masts and went for the british marvel (the Procor D , a surdy thing strong enough for a 505 mast) that was not so expensive thanks to the GB pound being low.

Sailing schools generally went for the untapered masts .

A good number of private owner conversions were done on insurer sponsorhip ...."oops, Mr Insurance broker... when i went to this river regatta i didn't notice the bridge arch was so low and the water level so high...it is amazing the things you can forget when in a close tactical race" .

A few years later aussie 420 sailors came with ultra thin ali masts (needlespar and the like) made out of round tube , not teardrop extrusion, and the taper obtained by Fluo turning process, with the boltrope track riveted on the tube ..a much less skilled labour intensive process and soon french firm Z spar copied it and cranked out cheap and efficient tapered dinghy masts.

In the US the 420 (built under french licence by Harken, then by PS) was and still is used for college and university racing...and with money issues , the US youth racers went for cheaper untapered masts...which dosnt make much of a difference in the context of college racing with a fleet of college / High schoool / university owned boats

The funny thing is that most US racers think the 420 is an US design ( some ten years ago a young US girl who came to our sailing school as an instructor in France just wouldn't believe it....she was patriotic to the point of wearing a stars and stripes bikini on the 4th of July.)...

IMHO the money matters and racing needs pressure are the two conflicting forces behind boat and rig design, one going in the "cheap and simple" direction, the other in exactly opposite way.
Michael Brigg
Posts: 1663
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:11 pm
Location: Gosport, UK

Re: What on earth?

Post by Michael Brigg »

I've said in previous posts (see below Re "Crufts") that many of us pick our boats for the same reasons that we pick all the other 'significant others' in our lives...dogs, cats, boats, cars, even wives.

We pick them because of their faults rather than their qualities.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1336&hilit=crufts

This is what makes life a challenge and the pleasure of overcoming the odds is what makes the experience more thrilling.

It is well documented that many of the most successful boats were not the fastest or most sophisticated designs and It is unlikely that the AC75 will catch on as a commercial success, or even spawn copies or development ides as for most of us Foil sailing is just too damn technical, and cars like the Fiat Panda and Vauxhall Nova are far greater commercial successes than the E-type or Lotus range sports cars.

For most of us the journey remains preferable to the arrival. (As an example try reading "The Worst journey in the world" by Appsly Cherry Gerrard.)
Polar exploration is at once the cleanest and most isolated way of having a bad time which has been devised...
If you march your Winter Journeys you will have your reward, so long as all you want is a penguin's egg."
A kind of sailing version of the "Mile high" club.

So for David's article on the worst boats, perhaps the best format would be for David to take on a kind of Frank Skinner persona and consign these boats on basis of best argument between colleagues, to the overgrown brambles and nettle patches of a Room 101 style of boat park.
Michael Brigg
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

The GB Picos, Bahias and Vagos (and their counterparts at Topper) have a different rationale.

The groundbreaking part is the polyethylene sandwich construction...it is really maintenance free, contrary to GRP which needs some maintenance , specially the early boats with some wooden parts in them.

Furthermore , the Polyethylène construction is cheaper than the GRP...but only once the huge initial cost of the industrial tool has been balanced by the mass sales.

The big advantage of polyethylène sandwich is its resistance to little dings and shocks and it has a big appeal to sailing centres as the instructors team tend to go professional instead of volunteers and cost more, furthermore most sailing instructors dont like maintenance tasks very much and when they have their word in boat choice , they go for the soft plastic sort of boats.

It is obvious that a maintenance free boat reduces the wages expenses in big sailing sclool fleets but those boats are not without disadvantages.

Polyethylene boats are both softer and heavier than their GRP counterparts ...they tend to loose their shape if improperly stored ....which has led the designers to use the old trick of Junkers 52 aircraft and Citoen 2CV and H van fame...the corrugated panel construction and the swages in the thin skin.

Picos and the like all sport the swages / rubbing strakes under their hulls to limit hull deformation but this is not exactly good as far as hydrodynamics priciples are concerned.

The modern equivalent of the 420 is the Laser Vago (in the dacron sail version) but its hull is 116 kgs instead of 80 (imagine sailing and carrying a 420 with a sack of concrete in it) and therefore needs more canvas to move).
Granted it has a double bottomed self bailing cockpit (the soft plastic construction wouldn't allow for a single bottom hull anyway) , it is a good boat with a quality rig but it is not a better boat in quite a number of domains .

The polyethylène also has issues with sunrays and UV's , after some time outside under the sun it becomes brittle and cracks, unless carefully wrapped in covers, (the kind of things never done in a sailing school), specially on stress points like the transom on polyethylène cheap powerboats like the Jeanneau Newmatic (granted , today's polyethylène is marginally better in this respect).

In Multihull oriented France the polyethylene construction has been tried and tested for sailing school catamarans and in many respects soft plastic construction goes better with catamarans than with mono hulls, even with single sheet polyethylène (Like the french made New cats) in lieu of plyethylene trilam sandwich.

The kind of curvature radius involved in a catamran hull is more compatible with soft plastic construction...except for one point: the stress and bend in the rear crossbeam attachment point on the hull.

A catamaran tends to distort when hard pressed (specially the overcanvassed Hobie Cat 16, a kind of US sports car with huge engine and poor chassis, and the bed like style of platform on four posts dosen't help) and the first (New cats) and second generation (Dart 16, Hobie Twixxy, Topaz) of training polythylène catamarans all had issues with the hull cracking in the critical zone of the rear crossbeam attachment.

Both New cat and topper are launching new training catamarans with design tricks to try cure this problem which is not a small one: a puncture in a polyethylène hull (the boat hitting a pointy obstacle) is easily repaired with some polyethylène and a Leister heat gun but a fatigue crack is terminal and calls for an entire new hull (Both Dart and New cat have flirted wth recievership and bankrupcy because of warranty issues).


The ideal material for both dinghies would be possibly some sort of polyethylène or other soft plastic but fully glass reinforced .

There has been trials in this field in France : Boutemy / 2 win of La Rochelle produced very good cats in this kind of material which is both shock resistant, stress resistant, light and industrially manufactured with low manpower costs...but another snag appeared : after some time and minimum wear the fiberglass fibres ends started to show at the surface and induce a nasty skin rash on the thigs of young summer sailors wearing only shorts and T shirts, it is a warranty issue with legal action involved between the boatbuilder and its subcontractor and
it does nothing to help Boutemy out of the current economic crisis.


Another very recent try, this time in dinghy field has been made by Jean Marie Finot , of vendée globe fame...he teamed with an industrial firm manufacturing glass reinforced soft plastic body panels for the car industry .

The material seems fantastic : Lightweight, rigid and shiny lile gelcoat coated GRP, industrially molded at low manpower costs like polyethylène and shock resistant (think of car "shield" like bumpers)...but this time it is the design that is troublesome :Finot is a very good designer of fast keel boats (from Vendée globe 60 ft ocean racers to Open 5,60 dropkeel sportboat that makes a splash both sides of the Atlantic) ...but he is not a good dinghy designer and furthermore he is somewhat of the stubborn kind of guy.

His design (called the Albatros) is a kind of crossover between a dinghy and a keelboat and unfortunately it has many of the design quirks of Finot'searlier design, the infamous Wizz.

The Leaded -30 Kgs-60 pound centreboard (supposedly of the gybing sort) is shaped in the old windsurf style and protrudes under the hull even when retracted which makes trolleying problematic .

The transom is very wide and the boat is certainly stable and can even go reasonably fast fast in a breeze but the wetted surface is BIG!

It is a pity because Finot invested much of his own money in a mammoth hi-tech set of molds (hull , deck, CB , case inner stringer) and refuses to see that his boat is somewhat flawed.

He did test a fibreglass prototype and made a few improvements ( the carbon untapered mast gained a track for hoisting the sail instead of the Laser/wizz sleeven mainsail which is oK on a laser but just plain stupid on a mast with shrouds) but the hull desgn and CB/Keel design remained the same as he had unwittedly ordered the mold construction to start before the trials were completed (it is a huge aluminium old with an intricated set of heating pipes in it and the cost is staggering).

It is a pity because i think if he had merely copied a good but not too extreme hull from a international 14 (before the pressure of racing made them unsuitable for beginners) and bought "off the shelf" components like the aluminium extrusion foils you find on Marttia italian ctamarans or Ovington 29ers and asked for more outside advice in the testing period we would have a perfect boat ...on a limited budget

http://www.finot.com/newsletter/envoi_n ... pt212.html
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

The GB Picos, Bahias and Vagos (and their counterparts at Topper) have a different rationale.

The groundbreaking part is the polyethylene sandwich construction...it is really maintenance free, contrary to GRP which needs some maintenance , specially the early boats with some wooden parts in them.

Furthermore , the Polyethylène construction is cheaper than the GRP...but only once the huge initial cost of the industrial tool has been balanced by the mass sales.

The big advantage of polyethylène sandwich is its resistance to little dings and shocks and it has a big appeal to sailing centres as the instructors team tend to go professional instead of volunteers and cost more, furthermore most sailing instructors dont like maintenance tasks very much and when they have their word in boat choice , they go for the soft plastic sort of boats.

It is obvious that a maintenance free boat reduces the wages expenses in big sailing sclool fleets but those boats are not without disadvantages.

Polyethylene boats are both softer and heavier than their GRP counterparts ...they tend to loose their shape if improperly stored ....which has led the designers to use the old trick of Junkers 52 aircraft and Citoen 2CV and H van fame...the corrugated panel construction and the swages in the thin skin.

Picos and the like all sport the swages / rubbing strakes under their hulls to limit hull deformation but this is not exactly good as far as hydrodynamics priciples are concerned.

The modern equivalent of the 420 is the Laser Vago (in the dacron sail version) but its hull is 116 kgs instead of 80 (imagine sailing and carrying a 420 with a sack of concrete in it) and therefore needs more canvas to move).
Granted it has a double bottomed self bailing cockpit (the soft plastic construction wouldn't allow for a single bottom hull anyway) , it is a good boat with a quality rig but it is not a better boat in quite a number of domains .

The polyethylène also has issues with sunrays and UV's , after some time outside under the sun it becomes brittle and cracks, unless carefully wrapped in covers, (the kind of things never done in a sailing school), specially on stress points like the transom on polyethylène cheap powerboats like the Jeanneau Newmatic (granted , today's polyethylène is marginally better in this respect).

In Multihull oriented France the polyethylene construction has been tried and tested for sailing school catamarans and in many respects soft plastic construction goes better with catamarans than with mono hulls, even with single sheet polyethylène (Like the french made New cats) in lieu of plyethylene trilam sandwich.

The kind of curvature radius involved in a catamran hull is more compatible with soft plastic construction...except for one point: the stress and bend in the rear crossbeam attachment point on the hull.

A catamaran tends to distort when hard pressed (specially the overcanvassed Hobie Cat 16, a kind of US sports car with huge engine and poor chassis, and the bed like style of platform on four posts dosen't help) and the first (New cats) and second generation (Dart 16, Hobie Twixxy, Topaz) of training polythylène catamarans all had issues with the hull cracking in the critical zone of the rear crossbeam attachment.

Both New cat and topper are launching new training catamarans with design tricks to try cure this problem which is not a small one: a puncture in a polyethylène hull (the boat hitting a pointy obstacle) is easily repaired with some polyethylène and a Leister heat gun but a fatigue crack is terminal and calls for an entire new hull (Both Dart and New cat have flirted wth recievership and bankrupcy because of warranty issues).


The ideal material for both dinghies would be possibly some sort of polyethylène or other soft plastic but fully glass reinforced .

There has been trials in this field in France : Boutemy / 2 win of La Rochelle produced very good cats in this kind of material which is both shock resistant, stress resistant, light and industrially manufactured with low manpower costs...but another snag appeared : after some time and minimum wear the fiberglass fibres ends started to show at the surface and induce a nasty skin rash on the thigs of young summer sailors wearing only shorts and T shirts, it is a warranty issue with legal action involved between the boatbuilder and its subcontractor and
it does nothing to help Boutemy out of the current economic crisis.


Another very recent try, this time in dinghy field has been made by Jean Marie Finot , of vendée globe fame...he teamed with an industrial firm manufacturing glass reinforced soft plastic body panels for the car industry .

The material seems fantastic : Lightweight, rigid and shiny lile gelcoat coated GRP, industrially molded at low manpower costs like polyethylène and shock resistant (think of car "shield" like bumpers)...but this time it is the design that is troublesome :Finot is a very good designer of fast keel boats (from Vendée globe 60 ft ocean racers to Open 5,60 dropkeel sportboat that makes a splash both sides of the Atlantic) ...but he is not a good dinghy designer and furthermore he is somewhat of the stubborn kind of guy.

His design (called the Albatros) is a kind of crossover between a dinghy and a keelboat and unfortunately it has many of the design quirks of Finot'searlier design, the infamous Wizz.

The Leaded -30 Kgs-60 pound centreboard (supposedly of the gybing sort) is shaped in the old windsurf style and protrudes under the hull even when retracted which makes trolleying problematic .

The transom is very wide and the boat is certainly stable and can even go reasonably fast fast in a breeze but the wetted surface is BIG!

It is a pity because Finot invested much of his own money in a mammoth hi-tech set of molds (hull , deck, CB , case inner stringer) and refuses to see that his boat is somewhat flawed.

He did test a fibreglass prototype and made a few improvements ( the carbon untapered mast gained a track for hoisting the sail instead of the Laser/wizz sleeven mainsail which is oK on a laser but just plain stupid on a mast with shrouds) but the hull desgn and CB/Keel design remained the same as he had unwittedly ordered the mold construction to start before the trials were completed (it is a huge aluminium old with an intricated set of heating pipes in it and the cost is staggering).

It is a pity because i think if he had merely copied a good but not too extreme hull from a international 14 (before the pressure of racing made them unsuitable for beginners) and bought "off the shelf" components like the aluminium extrusion foils you find on Marttia italian ctamarans or Ovington 29ers and asked for more outside advice in the testing period we would have a perfect boat ...on a limited budget

http://www.finot.com/newsletter/envoi_n ... pt212.html
Rod
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 11:46 pm
Location: USA

Re: What on earth?

Post by Rod »

LaserTourist - I really enjoy your French dinghy history. What do you know of the Classic Moth's that were built during WWII (the Germans allowed the French to build Mothboats as they determined they were not a offensive weapon). Someone mentioned a book that could be purchased that has some of that history (written in French).
Rod M
Annapolis MD USA

http://www.earwigoagin.blogspot.com
http://cbifda.blogspot.com/

Classic Moth: 105
PK Dinghy
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Well, moths were mostly left to individual initiative and it only boomed in France Post war..the historic path has its rationale but is a bit convoluted

French gold medallist of 32 games Jacques Lebrun had been heavily defeated in the 36 games chiefly on athletic skill and weight .

The Olympia Jolle was a 12 Sq M heavy beast , much more physically demanding than the undistinguished US Snowbird, a broad in the beam slow US Style catboat that the french team had nicknamed the "olympic bidet"...and what's more the Snowbirds at the 32 games were a very miscellaneous collection of un-one design boats...Lebrun had been a straggler in the overall classification until he finally raced on the "good numbers"...on the other hand the Nazis had built a few hundreds of O jolle's 3 or for Years before the 1936 games and alloted them to youth organizations, sailing clubs , Kriegsmarine cadets an the like, so they had selected the pick of the litter from very athletic and fit sailors....and trounced the opposition.

In the wake of the 1936 games Herbulot , Lebrun , Laverne and the handful of competitive french dinghy clubs put together a comittee to build a cheap trainer with a 9 Sq M2 sail ....and make best efforts to have them made in big numbers to make a broad competitive basis.

The work was done mostly by swiss architect Staempfli but the design of the hull and sailplan was modified by Herbulot who got the credits for the design.

It was the Sharpie 9 Mètres Carrés (9 square metres sail) , it incorporated som ideas from Manfred Curry's theories (full length battens and triangular tiller for hiking, but was otherwise a flat , coffin shaped sharpie that even a moderately skilled young tinkerer could build in the club shed in a few weeks time ...on a shoestring budget .

Then came the 39/40 Phoney war and the invasion of France , an some right wing leaders blamed the "degenerate " "pampered" youth for it and the left wing 1936 front populaire government, and the youth hostel movements (young boys and girls under th same roof , a scandal for trditional catholics!, and paid hlidays at the expense of the boss!!!!)

Of course nobody mentioned the inept french generals and the lack of entusiasm of the french aircraft manufacturers to be nationalized and merged and rationalized in order to mass - produce up to date and efficient fighter aircraft..or the poor design british and french tanks of the period

It so happened that when Petain was made head of the puppet Vichy France , some sort of policy had to be devised to model the young french on the war happy , hard boiled, physically fit style of Hitler's youth.

They appointed Jean Borotra (yes the Wimbledon winning, Davis cup winning , tennis Musketeer, who was a high level, much travelled buisnessman- SATAM gasoline pumps- and efficient organiser) as a sports minister.

He got a trebled Physical training schedule in schools , high schools and universities, a massive recruitment of sports coaches , a sports budget mutiplied by a X20 factor (but the original sport budget was a fledling one)...and though his tenure was short lived (litlle more than 18 months) it was efficient in kickstarting sports as a part of education in France.

He refused to ban Jewish sportsmen from french championships but forbade professional sports and the very efficient FSGT a working class multuisports federation centered on french communist labour organisations, as well as UFOLEP, a similar organization of socialist and anti religious culture.

(he had been to the US and realized perfectly the Nazis would loose the war as soon as the US entered it , with Hitler making the deadly blunder to invade Soviet Union, he was disgusted with Pierre Laval and the Vichy clique and proclaimed a little too loud he would join the Free French via his native Basque country and Spain....he was arrested by the Gestapo, and interned not in a death camp but in a VIP gestapo prison , the Castle of Itter , in Tyrol....and was for some time after the war cold shouldered by both ex Resistance fighters and ex collaborationists.


Borotra 's scheme had an air arm (air scouts , sailgliding clubs ...in the best Nazi hitler youth style that helped build the Luftwaffe) and of course a naval arm (It was unclear if it was made to avenge the treacherous move of Winston Churchil in Mers el Kebir or join forces with the free french but some naval skills had to be brought in anyway).


The naval arm...was led by a Basque retired Naval Officer (Commender Rocq) and centerd on ex french navy fort of Socoa (the centre was later the birth place and craddle of the 420 in the early 60's)....

Of course , the existing prewar Socoa school was hugely extended, and Herbulot was bought in as a technical adviser...and a fairly competent one .

It is therefore unavoidable that, being a government scheme, running on public expenditure, some measure of dirigism was brought in ....including the boat's choice and design.

In restriction ridden France , the Rocq Borotra Youth sailing centres built the 2in Caneton dinghy (but the unavoidable building mistakes made the class evolve from a one design class into a loosely restrictd class) and the Sharpie 9M2 as a singlehander..they had special allowances for strategical commodities (wood, tools, nails, sailcloth, brass fittings...)

Of course the restricted US moth had no slot to fit in in such a situation and only started , somewhat timidly after the War
LASERTOURIST
Posts: 368
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
Location: France

Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

The DIY books where mostly by Georges Paul Thierry and during the war period they were printed in the official print Imprimerie Nationale.

Most of them were titled "Garçon construis toi même ton...(Caneton, Sharpie , Simplet, Moth, Mousse) .

After the war Herbulot joined the Free french resistance inspired Glenans sailing school and designed the very popular , ultracheap Vaurien which further helped popularize sailing in France , but the traditional sailing clubs were not amused and tried to promote a mini Caneton , caled the Mousse as a contender to the "communist"Vaurien...it was slightly more sophisticated , a trifle more expensive and was sold in hundreds while the Vaurien was sold in thousands (the power of the popular Masses !)

Contrary to the Vaurien (which was a professionally built boat only, the Mousse could be DIY built and was included post war in the GP Thierry books)

"Boy build your own"...(boat) most of these books have been reprinted by the classical sailing magazine Chasse Marée, but i think the moth was mostly a post war thing and it started mostly in Nantes (the Moth Nantais) another competitive spot.

http://www.priceminister.com/offer/buy/ ... Livre.html.

Moth somewhat boomed in France in the 50's and early 60's with DIY plans by Fragnière, and many others and even included an expensive but durable made in aluminium (could be rigged with a jib and even an outboard, the Gouget Moth:

http://www.forumvoile.com/forum/viewtop ... =73&t=4899

Many oddities were built in France as restricted moths , even a fibreglass cruising moth with a bubbletop cabin and bunk !!!! postwar ..french restricted classic moth have a organisation run by lous Pillons , a somewhat eccentric and difficult type of guy.

I recommand you browse his somewhat unkept website.

http://louis.pillon.pagesperso-orange.f ... hotos.html

Competitive moth sailing was then taken over by Duflos in the early 60's

http://louis.pillon.pagesperso-orange.f ... uflos.html

and then by a very young ant talented guy called Jacques Fauroux (he later won the quarter ton cup against the aussises...in Australia and by a wide margin on one of his own designs) and his sister Marie claude (who also raced in the OSTAR transatlantic in the early 70's.

But as you know , the French and belgian Moth class went one design with the excellent if somewhat fragile all rounder by Alois Rolland , the Europe Moth.

The Europe was a lightweight boys and (mostly) a girls thing and for the more athletic racers the OK dinghy was the natural step (it could be DIY built and the french federation endorsed it as a natural successor of the 9M2 sharpie

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpie_9_m2
LASERTOURIST
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

After checking:
The GP Thierry brochure: Garçon construis toi même to moth was published in 1950 at Editions maritimes et coloniales (see link) while the wartime bochures on the Sharpie 9M2 and Caneton , deemed a national cause were official documents(National print - Imprimerie Nationale) this points to the moth not being officially endorsed in the Borotra / Rocq scheme.

scroll down to see the 1950 moth Brochure (most probably the pram bowed Nantes born design called Moth nantais)

http://www.forumvoile.com/forum/viewtop ... =73&t=4899

A period document on the aluminium moth gouget demonstrarting its versatility:
Singlehander /2 in with jib (Pico style) , rowing or paddling , showing off with a girl in bikini at dipping time , car-topped laser or topper style on an early Renault 4CV, even planing with a 5 or 6 Hp Outboard...
http://www.forumvoile.com/forum/viewtop ... =40&t=2111

As a mater of thinking the role of the restricted Intl Moth in the developpment of sailing, one has to consider the big change in philosophy between then and now.

The 40's Moth was a DIY job for youngsters (build a cheap floating tub with cheap wood frame, plank it with chipboard, Masonite, plywood..etc) snatch a couple of bedclothes from mommy's cupboard and stich them to make a sail, grab a few bamboo sticks for the mast, make do with kitchen strings and chicken wire and go sailing and racing...)


It was basically a poor man's yacht and it spawned professionnaly built , one design, other poor men's yachts of the same size (Minisail , topper) with the scow bow that was needed to give those short boats some volume in the nose .

(Though much more voluminous as a boat the pointed 9M2 Sharpie was known as a nasty submarine when sailing downwind with some breeze and chop and the Laser behaves splendidly in downwind heavy conditions, much better than the OK, but still dips the nose from time to time in a short mediterranean swell)

Nowdays the foiling intl moth is a High tech carbon beast incorporating technology that is way outside the poor man's yacht concept, it is a more sophisticated building and tuning than a light aircraft..and has lost all the all round qualities of , say the Gouget moth.

(just try to start from a surf beach with a foiling moth or get a bikini girl standing on the foredeck of a Bladerider except if she is a circus acrobat...)

The pressure of competition , like it always does takes a perfectly affordable allrounder boat to unexpected lengths, specially when it is a developpement (retricted) class or a loosely one design class.

A perfectly good and interesting 505 could be made by restricting the number of blocks and strings, imposing fixed points for the jibsheet eye, forgetting the on the water adjustable shroud system, gybing centreboard...etc .

A few tenths of a knot would be lost here and there , but it would still remain a fast, safe and easily handled dinghy with plenty of (strict one design) competition.
davidh
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Re: What on earth?

Post by davidh »

Laser Tourist,

I was recently sailing on the faroux Quarter Tonner (at Benodet) - it is fully restored and very quick!

As to the 505, there WAS a far simpler solution: just impose the rules. The was supposed to be a one design, but is now anything BUT. The changes in the hull shape were so dramatic a few years back that boats numbered pre-8400 have their own prizes, as you cannot really compete with the new shape. Now the news is that out in Germany, where the 505 rules as king, there is a new and even better hull shape.....

I hate to say it but you are right. Take away the extravagance and what is left remains a superb, all round dinghy. Will that happen?

NO!

But worry not, France is leading the way in the world of 'Classic 505s' and there will be a Classic 505 class at the 2016 worlds at Weymouth!

Dougal
David H
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Re: What on earth?

Post by LASERTOURIST »

Hull changes...same went with the OK, and even the 470..
Trouble is as soon as many builders are authorized in a class (as was fashionable under the IYRU system of licensing one boatbuilder per nation before granting international status before the laser and Hobie 16 came in ....and even like that you'll always find somebody saying that NZ lasers are faster than US ones or that French built HC16 are more durable and rigid than US ones)
along with multiple sailmakers authorized too..well the boatbuilders , sailmakers , hardware makers tend to go in the game promoting their hulls , their sails , fiddle with the rules ...etc.
It went like that in the star class, in the 505 , 470 , FD an so many others .
Kind of works teams and pilots competing against private ones like in the early days of motor racing

Ocean racing (and specially Mini 6,50) would be better off with some sort of one design boat (think of the costs of boat reserarch and improvements for the sponsors ).

Of course there's always the alibi of "improving the breed" which can be found in the british / australian development classes (Nat 12 , Cherub, Intl 14, MR) with the class retracing the pedigree much in the style of a horseracing stud-book.

Trouble is boats do get "improved" only in the context of racing ...and at some point speed is traded against easy handling and all round capacities , the most extreme example being the Intl foiling moth.
The original Intl 14's or cherubs..etc were boats that a semi beginner could manage but current ones need lots of skill and fitness...and can nowhere be reconverted in a cruising dinghy or even fishing punt (as many dinghies do in France).

I think the first test for a newly designed sailing boat ability to gain a vast audience would be to start by the finishing stage: give the foil less, rig less hull to a 55 plus paunchy angling gentleman and see if he finds it manageable (even just, even if he deems it a little tippy buit still useable) as a fishing punt on a calm pond .

If it is the case , the boat is stable enough for the general public ...and it can be developped in some successful allrounder that willhopefully become a competitive class (the numbers making for close quarters racing).

It dosen takes the inherent stability of a supertanker or Thames barge, modern sit-on top polyethylene canoes make quite decent craft for anglers ....
JimC
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Re: What on earth?

Post by JimC »

davidh wrote: The was supposed to be a one design, but is now anything BUT. The changes in the hull shape were so dramatic a few years back that boats numbered pre-8400 have their own prizes, as you cannot really compete with the new shape.
It was always my understanding that the 505 design rules were deliberately particularly loose. I remember that being in the dinghy books back in the 70s.
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