I'm sorry but again no - this is just wrong. The 505 was NOT 'designed' for hot moulded construction - the boat did not start like that at all!
D
What on earth?
Re: What on earth?
David H
Re: What on earth?
And as for GRP construction, it is widely held that the pioneer of this was Ian Proctor, who was experimenting with the material way back at the start of the 1950s. Of course techniques - even the base understanding of what was needed, was really in it's infancy. The Wineglass rather got in on the act and tried to say that this was the 'first' but this is not true - it was Proctor and the Kestrel.
Because the build techniques for moulds were fairly basic, Proctor had a couple of wooden kestrels made with different interior/dec layouts.....one of those would made a wonderful addition to the classic scene!
D
Because the build techniques for moulds were fairly basic, Proctor had a couple of wooden kestrels made with different interior/dec layouts.....one of those would made a wonderful addition to the classic scene!
D
David H
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LASERTOURIST
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Re: What on earth?
I think , as with all firsts , the is some national pride involved and also experimenters work in their respective country in some kind of obscurity, secrecy or whatever before their work catches the limelight.
In the Voiles et voiliers Interviews L Lanaverre and Maury admit they had quite a long experimenting period, dipping bits of fibreglass fabric in resin basins , drip, and drape on a mold...etc before they produced their first 505 and finns, the kind of job that would be deemed unhealthy under present day standards.
I think part of the misunderstanding is about what exactly is deemed to be the beginning of the 505.
IF the somewhat longer Coronet is regarded as a prototype 505 is included in the story it makes a difference and the Coronet Story is not well known in France before the La Baule trials.
It is true to add thet the very first GRP production boat in France was not a sailing boat but a modest tender rowboat with well rounded shape and bow (designed to use a transom scull, britanny and Glénans fasion ) by Rocca , a parisian canoe and powerboat specialist.
We had one at our club , it was a well thought job, the 3 transversal benches (stern , middle and stem were GRP moldings glued with the same kind of lip we now have on buoyancy tanks (which these benches indeed were, and even diamond head grip molded on their tops).
It had been shown at the 1957 boat show in Paris and was soon followed by a host of Rocca GRP power dinghies.
Fact is the first true 505 (either french or GB ) were wooden, even amateur builders first used the wooden technique with veneers on a temporary chipboard frame or the more sophisticated techniques used by Fairey
In the Parisian Rowing Club ACBB, in the mid 50's three sailig enthusiats made their first 505 wih this technique, called bois moulé , molded wood (and christend it "les trois cloches" (the 3 bells, after the Edith Piaf song...but a tong in cheek allusion to the three of them as cloche in french means bells but also Bum, stupid guy...etc)....
The interesting point is that after just one year in existence "les trois cloches" was back in the shed, polished, waxed, gel_coated and glassed ..to build a mould for the fleet of club's 505 in the new , maintenance free , space age material -think there were some 10 or 15 GRP replicas of les 3 cloches made in the late 50's early 60's.
I think it illustrates the transition from wood to plastic .
The first production wineglasses (with the usual trick of numbering starting at 100 , not 0) came out in 1960 (design 1958, prototype boat 1959), when the 420 had been in production for 18 months, and the 420 was a kind of downsized 505 and Maury made it clear he designed the 420 directly for GRP , drawing on his experience of building GRP 505's....
It is fair to add that early Lanaverre 505's hulls where kind of soft and had many wooden bits in them (stringers , bulkheads ...etc), and later GRP "omegas", to make them competitive against Fairey boats
In the Voiles et voiliers Interviews L Lanaverre and Maury admit they had quite a long experimenting period, dipping bits of fibreglass fabric in resin basins , drip, and drape on a mold...etc before they produced their first 505 and finns, the kind of job that would be deemed unhealthy under present day standards.
I think part of the misunderstanding is about what exactly is deemed to be the beginning of the 505.
IF the somewhat longer Coronet is regarded as a prototype 505 is included in the story it makes a difference and the Coronet Story is not well known in France before the La Baule trials.
It is true to add thet the very first GRP production boat in France was not a sailing boat but a modest tender rowboat with well rounded shape and bow (designed to use a transom scull, britanny and Glénans fasion ) by Rocca , a parisian canoe and powerboat specialist.
We had one at our club , it was a well thought job, the 3 transversal benches (stern , middle and stem were GRP moldings glued with the same kind of lip we now have on buoyancy tanks (which these benches indeed were, and even diamond head grip molded on their tops).
It had been shown at the 1957 boat show in Paris and was soon followed by a host of Rocca GRP power dinghies.
Fact is the first true 505 (either french or GB ) were wooden, even amateur builders first used the wooden technique with veneers on a temporary chipboard frame or the more sophisticated techniques used by Fairey
In the Parisian Rowing Club ACBB, in the mid 50's three sailig enthusiats made their first 505 wih this technique, called bois moulé , molded wood (and christend it "les trois cloches" (the 3 bells, after the Edith Piaf song...but a tong in cheek allusion to the three of them as cloche in french means bells but also Bum, stupid guy...etc)....
The interesting point is that after just one year in existence "les trois cloches" was back in the shed, polished, waxed, gel_coated and glassed ..to build a mould for the fleet of club's 505 in the new , maintenance free , space age material -think there were some 10 or 15 GRP replicas of les 3 cloches made in the late 50's early 60's.
I think it illustrates the transition from wood to plastic .
The first production wineglasses (with the usual trick of numbering starting at 100 , not 0) came out in 1960 (design 1958, prototype boat 1959), when the 420 had been in production for 18 months, and the 420 was a kind of downsized 505 and Maury made it clear he designed the 420 directly for GRP , drawing on his experience of building GRP 505's....
It is fair to add that early Lanaverre 505's hulls where kind of soft and had many wooden bits in them (stringers , bulkheads ...etc), and later GRP "omegas", to make them competitive against Fairey boats
-
LASERTOURIST
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
- Location: France
Re: What on earth?
I think , as with all firsts , the is some national pride involved and also experimenters work in their respective country in some kind of obscurity, secrecy or whatever before their work catches the limelight.
In the Voiles et voiliers Interviews L Lanaverre and Maury admit they had quite a long experimenting period, dipping bits of fibreglass fabric in resin basins , drip, and drape on a mold...etc before they produced their first 505 and finns, the kind of job that would be deemed unhealthy under present day standards.
I think part of the misunderstanding is about what exactly is deemed to be the beginning of the 505.
IF the somewhat longer Coronet is regarded as a prototype 505 is included in the story it makes a difference and the Coronet Story is not well known in France before the La Baule trials.
It is true to add thet the very first GRP production boat in France was not a sailing boat but a modest tender rowboat with well rounded shape and bow (designed to use a transom scull, britanny and Glénans fasion ) by Rocca , a parisian canoe and powerboat specialist.
We had one at our club , it was a well thought job, the 3 transversal benches (stern , middle and stem were GRP moldings glued with the same kind of lip we now have on buoyancy tanks (which these benches indeed were, and even diamond head grip molded on their tops).
It had been shown at the 1957 boat show in Paris and was soon followed by a host of Rocca GRP power dinghies.
Fact is the first true 505 (either french or GB ) were wooden, even amateur builders first used the wooden technique with veneers on a temporary chipboard frame or the more sophisticated techniques used by Fairey
In the Parisian Rowing Club ACBB, in the mid 50's three sailig enthusiats made their first 505 wih this technique, called bois moulé , molded wood (and christend it "les trois cloches" (the 3 bells, after the Edith Piaf song...but a tong in cheek allusion to the three of them as cloche in french means bells but also Bum, stupid guy...etc)....
The interesting point is that after just one year in existence "les trois cloches" was back in the shed, polished, waxed, gel_coated and glassed ..to build a mould for the fleet of club's 505 in the new , maintenance free , space age material -think there were some 10 or 15 GRP replicas of les 3 cloches made in the late 50's early 60's.
I think it illustrates the transition from wood to plastic .
The first production wineglasses (with the usual trick of numbering starting at 100 , not 0) came out in 1960 (design 1958, prototype boat 1959), when the 420 had been in production for 18 months, and the 420 was a kind of downsized 505 and Maury made it clear he designed the 420 directly for GRP , drawing on his experience of building GRP 505's....
It is fair to add that early Lanaverre 505's hulls where kind of soft and had many wooden bits in them (stringers , bulkheads ...etc), and later GRP "omegas", to make them competitive against Fairey boats
In the Voiles et voiliers Interviews L Lanaverre and Maury admit they had quite a long experimenting period, dipping bits of fibreglass fabric in resin basins , drip, and drape on a mold...etc before they produced their first 505 and finns, the kind of job that would be deemed unhealthy under present day standards.
I think part of the misunderstanding is about what exactly is deemed to be the beginning of the 505.
IF the somewhat longer Coronet is regarded as a prototype 505 is included in the story it makes a difference and the Coronet Story is not well known in France before the La Baule trials.
It is true to add thet the very first GRP production boat in France was not a sailing boat but a modest tender rowboat with well rounded shape and bow (designed to use a transom scull, britanny and Glénans fasion ) by Rocca , a parisian canoe and powerboat specialist.
We had one at our club , it was a well thought job, the 3 transversal benches (stern , middle and stem were GRP moldings glued with the same kind of lip we now have on buoyancy tanks (which these benches indeed were, and even diamond head grip molded on their tops).
It had been shown at the 1957 boat show in Paris and was soon followed by a host of Rocca GRP power dinghies.
Fact is the first true 505 (either french or GB ) were wooden, even amateur builders first used the wooden technique with veneers on a temporary chipboard frame or the more sophisticated techniques used by Fairey
In the Parisian Rowing Club ACBB, in the mid 50's three sailig enthusiats made their first 505 wih this technique, called bois moulé , molded wood (and christend it "les trois cloches" (the 3 bells, after the Edith Piaf song...but a tong in cheek allusion to the three of them as cloche in french means bells but also Bum, stupid guy...etc)....
The interesting point is that after just one year in existence "les trois cloches" was back in the shed, polished, waxed, gel_coated and glassed ..to build a mould for the fleet of club's 505 in the new , maintenance free , space age material -think there were some 10 or 15 GRP replicas of les 3 cloches made in the late 50's early 60's.
I think it illustrates the transition from wood to plastic .
The first production wineglasses (with the usual trick of numbering starting at 100 , not 0) came out in 1960 (design 1958, prototype boat 1959), when the 420 had been in production for 18 months, and the 420 was a kind of downsized 505 and Maury made it clear he designed the 420 directly for GRP , drawing on his experience of building GRP 505's....
It is fair to add that early Lanaverre 505's hulls where kind of soft and had many wooden bits in them (stringers , bulkheads ...etc), and later GRP "omegas", to make them competitive against Fairey boats
Re: What on earth?
Hi Laser Tourist,
as part of the 60th birthday celebrations for the 505, I have just written an article about the 'birth' of the boat. Not the Coronet, though that is very much part of the story, but the 505 itself! What will interest you is the news that the boat beat the plans! It was something of the 'chicken or the egg' and in this case, it was the chicken (the prototype hull) that won! (the plans arrived a short while after).
As it is unlikely that you will get the magazine in France, once it is out, I will write again, if you then give me your address I will post you a copy!
In the meantime, can you help me please? Alain et Jean Cettier..... are they 'with us' still? the other question would be about Mdme Buffet, is she still around (she would be very old if she was!) .
It may well be that the Merlin Rocket book gets back burnered for a while so that it ties in with the anniversary of the calls, if this is the case then I will start work on the 505 book!
Cheers
D
as part of the 60th birthday celebrations for the 505, I have just written an article about the 'birth' of the boat. Not the Coronet, though that is very much part of the story, but the 505 itself! What will interest you is the news that the boat beat the plans! It was something of the 'chicken or the egg' and in this case, it was the chicken (the prototype hull) that won! (the plans arrived a short while after).
As it is unlikely that you will get the magazine in France, once it is out, I will write again, if you then give me your address I will post you a copy!
In the meantime, can you help me please? Alain et Jean Cettier..... are they 'with us' still? the other question would be about Mdme Buffet, is she still around (she would be very old if she was!) .
It may well be that the Merlin Rocket book gets back burnered for a while so that it ties in with the anniversary of the calls, if this is the case then I will start work on the 505 book!
Cheers
D
David H
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LASERTOURIST
- Posts: 368
- Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm
- Location: France
Re: What on earth?
Hello
I have no clue concerning the Cettiers though i suspect the father passed away long time ago.
Huguette Buffet died some years before Marcel , I think she had suffered both a broken leg and a bad case of flue while attending a regatta with Marcel and did not recover.
Marcel buffet as you may know passed away in 2009 , he was cremated and his ashes were comitted to the Seine river in a very moving ceremony (His 505 was on tow behind a gleaming warnished Riva powerboat going at idle and just equalling the river current, one of his ex crewmen was helming the 505 and the other was spreading the ashes in the river while a bunch of Dinghy fans attended , on a backdrop of a dozen 505 in half circle on the boatpark site of CVP, with the jibs hoisted.
A meal in the best tradition of the "repas des canotiers " ensued at the clubhouse and it was not a sad thing at all, the wine and sailing memories helped to make it a very friendly ceremony indeed.
I think i gave you the references of the book by patrick chapuis , which includes a chapter about the beginning of the 505
If you can forward me your part of the story i'll give you my e mail on a PM
Best regards
GG
I have no clue concerning the Cettiers though i suspect the father passed away long time ago.
Huguette Buffet died some years before Marcel , I think she had suffered both a broken leg and a bad case of flue while attending a regatta with Marcel and did not recover.
Marcel buffet as you may know passed away in 2009 , he was cremated and his ashes were comitted to the Seine river in a very moving ceremony (His 505 was on tow behind a gleaming warnished Riva powerboat going at idle and just equalling the river current, one of his ex crewmen was helming the 505 and the other was spreading the ashes in the river while a bunch of Dinghy fans attended , on a backdrop of a dozen 505 in half circle on the boatpark site of CVP, with the jibs hoisted.
A meal in the best tradition of the "repas des canotiers " ensued at the clubhouse and it was not a sad thing at all, the wine and sailing memories helped to make it a very friendly ceremony indeed.
I think i gave you the references of the book by patrick chapuis , which includes a chapter about the beginning of the 505
If you can forward me your part of the story i'll give you my e mail on a PM
Best regards
GG
Re: What on earth?
GG............ something to get your interest!
I'm sure you know the location - it is the dock at Ouisterham! It was easier to get the boats dropped in to the water by crane!
The picture is from the Austin Farrar collection- who has a huge part in the 505 story!
best regards
Dougal
I'm sure you know the location - it is the dock at Ouisterham! It was easier to get the boats dropped in to the water by crane!
The picture is from the Austin Farrar collection- who has a huge part in the 505 story!
best regards
Dougal
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David H
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LASERTOURIST
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Re: What on earth?
Wasn't the first franco british 505 match (2 teams of 3 boats each) held in Ouistreham sometime in the early 50's?
The Patrick chapuis book mentions it and even one of the british contenders arriving late after crossing the channel in a cabin cruiser, (The others had taken the Cherbourg freey and trailered to Ouistreham) with the 505 piggybacked atop the coachroof....and not even touching Ouistreham harbour but masting and rigging in the open sea while the starting procedure for the 1st race was going on...
Austin Frarrar was surely in this first franco british 505 race sometime in the early mid fifties ....cant check the date and entry list (sorry i'm in Corsica and the book is in Paris) Perhaps the pic was shot there and then...
The Patrick chapuis book mentions it and even one of the british contenders arriving late after crossing the channel in a cabin cruiser, (The others had taken the Cherbourg freey and trailered to Ouistreham) with the 505 piggybacked atop the coachroof....and not even touching Ouistreham harbour but masting and rigging in the open sea while the starting procedure for the 1st race was going on...
Austin Frarrar was surely in this first franco british 505 race sometime in the early mid fifties ....cant check the date and entry list (sorry i'm in Corsica and the book is in Paris) Perhaps the pic was shot there and then...
Re: What on earth?
GG,
you're pretty much right there! This is just one of a number of pictures taken at the event by Austin (or featuring him).
It is a great story and one that I still want to write.......................
let's hope!
D
you're pretty much right there! This is just one of a number of pictures taken at the event by Austin (or featuring him).
It is a great story and one that I still want to write.......................
let's hope!
D
David H
Re: What on earth?
The story of moulded wooden craft is complicated FaireyMarine had a war time plant that produced the Mosquito Fighter/Bomber and used it to make ,the hot moulded single hander Firefly for the post war Olympic Games. which found success as a double hander. They later produced a range of Int 14's, Swordfish,Albacore,Duckling and many more including 505. But they did not introduce it. that was J.Westell, who was commissioned by the French Caneton class to design a modern class to replace their hardchine original This became the 505. But J Westell asked permission of Austin (Clarence) Farrar to use the line and methods including Cold moulding Clarence had produced a very succesful range of Fourteens includingK 583 which won the POW 4times helmed by Bruce Bank.also Thunderbolt 635 supposed the be the lines for Coronet and the 505 Thunderbolt skippered by Jack Knights was doing well in a POW when the Rig collapsed and she was towed home. She was later sold to the States. Clarence experimted with GlassFibre it was far too heavy and was never registered but could be seen on the banks of the Hickling Broad S.C
Re: What on earth?
Hi Tom,
That is pretty much how the story goes, I've got the Thunderbolt story (and pictures) all documented and forming the 'already written' Chapter 1 of the book that will chart the history of the 505
.
**** BTW - the Facebook page is now open, just look for 505book and you'll be directed to it).
https://www.facebook.com/505book
What is key to the story is the relationship between John W and Austin - with both Bruce Banks and Charles Currey in the mix as well nor can the part played by Jack Chippendale be overlooked. So to claim that John was 'embittered' is wrong, as is the assertion that the boat was built for hot moulded construction! Certainly, as the book takes shape the role of all these people will be featured, for they are so important to the 'bigger picture'.
At some point we need to catch up, I've already got one and a half articles on the 14s either part written or 'blocked out' (with the restorations of Chris's Holt boat, Nessa with 'Aggie', Chris B with his Uffa Fox boat...there is a lot going on there), later on in the classic series these will all come together in one good story! (and I recently found that just up the road from me here is the 2nd ever Fairey 14, the boat that Charles took to Bermuda.... 545?)
It will be good to catch up anyway - we're always on the lookout for good stories and the 14s are rich in them!
D
That is pretty much how the story goes, I've got the Thunderbolt story (and pictures) all documented and forming the 'already written' Chapter 1 of the book that will chart the history of the 505
.
**** BTW - the Facebook page is now open, just look for 505book and you'll be directed to it).
https://www.facebook.com/505book
What is key to the story is the relationship between John W and Austin - with both Bruce Banks and Charles Currey in the mix as well nor can the part played by Jack Chippendale be overlooked. So to claim that John was 'embittered' is wrong, as is the assertion that the boat was built for hot moulded construction! Certainly, as the book takes shape the role of all these people will be featured, for they are so important to the 'bigger picture'.
At some point we need to catch up, I've already got one and a half articles on the 14s either part written or 'blocked out' (with the restorations of Chris's Holt boat, Nessa with 'Aggie', Chris B with his Uffa Fox boat...there is a lot going on there), later on in the classic series these will all come together in one good story! (and I recently found that just up the road from me here is the 2nd ever Fairey 14, the boat that Charles took to Bermuda.... 545?)
It will be good to catch up anyway - we're always on the lookout for good stories and the 14s are rich in them!
D
David H
Re: What on earth?
Tom V - have just confirmed that the boat just up the road is 545 - Sunrise!
D
D
David H