It says it's a moth.....

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Nessa
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It says it's a moth.....

Post by Nessa » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:49 pm

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solentgal
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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by solentgal » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:34 am

With that insignia, and the overall appearance, it is hard to believe it isn't somehow Moth related........but not as we know it. I have a vague recollection of a Flying Moth......but that insignia??? An interesting one for sure......just as well it's a long drive away :)
Sami.

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Nessa
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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by Nessa » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:12 am

My thoughts exactly re the drive!
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Ed
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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by Ed » Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:36 pm

Very close to me though....

have asked the seller whether I can come and have a look at it.

from above it does look a bit like a Europe, but from below.....it doesn't look quite right at all.

If I go, I will take some more photos and report back.

cheers

eib
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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by JimC » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:13 pm

solentgal wrote: I have a vague recollection of a Flying Moth......but that insignia???
Away from my database at the moment, but yes I too remember another Moth class in my old Py lists.

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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by phil58490 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:31 pm

Well, did someone on here buy it?
Just across the Tamar in South East Cornwall

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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by Ed » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:56 pm

Yup,

It was bought by fellow Roadford Lake sailor: Kevin Boyd.

We went and looked at it last w/end and I think both of us pretty much fell in love with it straight away.

It really is a very pretty boat indeed.

https://plus.google.com/photos/11373149 ... yrv5naaYVA

It would be lovely to get a confirmed identity for it. It's 11ft and with that sail emblem it has got to be some kind of Moth. But all my searching has found nothing about the Flying Moth. It is hard to google as all searches just bring up pages of stuff on new foilers. On the CVRDA-FB pages, there was some discussion about whether it was a Fly, but that is too short and this is definitely on exactly 11ft.

Their are two really striking things about it. The first is that the shape looks really quite modern and quite aggressive. A steady gently V the whole length with not too much rocker, (although quite forwards - typical of the time), with a hard chine, giving a quite boxy shape, with tons of planning surfaces - this boat is going to fly offwind. On the other hand the plan shape is very gentle and with the rolled in decks, looks from above very much like a Europe or presumably a Europa moth. So, it does look in a way like a 'chined Europe. But the point is. This does not look like a 'trainer' of any kind, it looks fast and quite likely quite tiperty.

The second thing is that the build quality looks very high indeed. The ply which is 4mm throughout, is really high quality 3-veneer full red mahogany throughout. OK, I know there was more decent ply around a while ago, but this looks just like the best full-sapele Robbins Ply, Super Elite Plus and have rarely seen any dinghies with as good a ply. Certainly way better than anything that I can remember being used by Fairey, Holt, Chippendale or W&C. in the 50s, and only a few in the 60s.

Again, the centre-board case is solid african mahogany, no problems there.

So, Not being sure of when the Flying Moth was being made, how would one age this boat. Well it is certainly all held together with aerolite or cascomite, which of course is now largely failing. The boat has galvinised wire rigging on a wooden mast and cotton sheets, all pushing the date towards 50s rather than 60s?

One interesting point is that there are no bailers and you would of thought this boat would likely fill up if capsized. The bouyancy is interesting all being one sealed unit with two hatches under foredeck and one under stern deck. These are held in place with thick elastic. When did this practice come into use? and when did elastic/rubber start being available for this use. I think early, others not so sure.

Any other thoughts?

More importantly, does anyone know anything at all about the Flying Moth Class, Where were they sailed? When were they designed and who by. Any other information would be very welcome to Kevin or myself.

Cheers

eib
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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by JimC » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:17 am

Flying Moth was in 1958-1964 PY lists at 118 with cotton sails up to 1960 and 113 with terylene sails from 1962. That's 1285/1282 in modern Money and the same sort of territory as a British Moth. Other than that I've never come across it! Old year books and class listing books anyone?

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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by Ed » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:29 am

Thanks Jim,

that is very useful,

now I know what years it was around, I can dig through the yearbooks.

cheers

eib
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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by dieharddinghysailor » Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:50 pm

OK, here's the scoop: I wrote to my old friend Robin Kemp and this is his reply:

Re: Flying Moth (from Mike Scott)
Hi Mike

Definately a Flying Moth ! As you say the emblem on the sail was FM in a circle. They were built on Southampton Water next to Netley Abbey . I can remember going down there to pick up the boat . At the same time Gordon Maclean from Kingston Bagpuize was picking up his. His son was in Seagars with me.


I sailed mine at the Worlds International Moth Champs in Ostende in 1962 . I remember it blew old boots and being too light I came about half way . Fantastic experience. After that I bought a new Florida Moth from Bossoms and won the Nationals in 1964.


I gave a lot of my old photos to Tony Hibbert some years ago when he was doing a history of the Int. Moth Class. I will have another look. If the person who owns the boat wants to give me ring or you can give him my e mail.


I am still working and unfortunately I have not ben sailing for a couple of years. Silly as I have a Laser and avery nice old wooden Solo . I really must sort them out. I have been threatening to get back sailing now that retirement beckons! If you want to contact me by phone, please send IM to Dieharddinghysailor and he will put you in touch. (small edit by mods)

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Nessa
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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by Nessa » Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:19 pm

Hat! Nice work, good to have a mystery solved.
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Re: FLYING MOTH

Post by FM-W17 designer » Wed May 17, 2017 6:24 pm

Hi guys ... all who are interested in learning about the Flying Moth. Just happens I can put you out of your misery ;-), as I'm the designer of the boat. Here's the story.
I first designed this boat in 1954 while still 19, but studying naval architecture at Southampton U.
The first Mark1 was built by a novice builder in Cowes, but was too heavy and wet. They did not follow my scantlings - thinking they were too light. So I raised the freeboard, called it a Mark ll and we built 3 of them and raced at the Hamble RSC. In '56 with a couple of buddies, I started 'Singlehanded Products' and we exhibited at the Earls Court Boat Show. Got a dozen orders there and built them in a (cold, stone) place at Netley Abbey. I still have a couple of brochures from those days. About 15 were built there and about 30 sets of plans were sold ... adding another 10 for a total of about 25 Flying Moths in England. (I still have the originals of the plans in fact). It was the first moth to have extended decks I believe ... 505 style, except 'hard chine'. The extension was only about 4-5" though. (I had recently seen the Coronet of John Westell at the 1953 Coronation Race around the Isle of Wight in which I participated)
I entered my #6 in the British/European Moth Championship at the Welsh Harp in London in 1957 and took a 2nd place behind an older chap who had won the Championship before. In fact, there's a small PATHE News video on line, that shows the end of the race and my FM is clear to see. I will attach a screen shot taken from that short clip. I designed and built an alum self-bailer for the boat. About 4" x 3" .. worked fine but the peripheral gasket leaked. (The Elvstrom came out a year later and their narrower design allowed the ring seal and that worked great, so I did not follow up on mine .. but mine is still in my "Book of Ideas & Inventions" that now has 120 things documented ;-))
Around 1960 or so, someone (Tony Hibberd perhaps?) later sailed one in a European Championship and placed 4th I heard ... reporting that it was the fastest of all boats upwind, but too heavy to compete downwind, and as races finish downwind, it was about impossible to be in the top 3. Late in 1957, I emigrated to Canada and in 1959 I designed and built a 2-man hard-chine boat based very roughly on the same 'extended deck design ... and called it 'Flying Gnat". She was just over 12' and had a Hornet like arrgt .., with a self draining cockpit for the crew and small, deeper one aft for the skipper .. fitted with a nylon Holt/Allen self bailer. Only one of these was ever built (in Quebec, Canada) and I've no idea where it is now. But it was made with 3mm ply only, but the exterior was sheathed with fibreglass and polyester (car) resin, as epoxy was not yet available. (It was hard and durable but a little heavy).
In the 1960's I built another Flying Moth and as I fitted an unstayed rig and slightly lightened the structure, I called it a Mark lll. (In the 70's, a French-Canadian built the last Flying Moth and as he changed both the rig AND the deck layout, I called it a Mk.lV. That made a total of 28 and to my knowledge, none have been built since. I did visit John Claridge once on a trip back to the UK (ca 1970?) and saw the new extreme beams that he was using and could see that for Moth racing, that my FM would no longer be competitive .. that's what happens with development classes .., but at least my design was part of the process .. and as people still report ... "she sailed great, was fast upwind and was perhaps, one of the prettiest Moths ever offered" ... though that's subjective I know ;-) While in the UK, I used to sail with and against some of the best in the country (incl Uffa Fox) and used to do moonlight work for Laurent Giles and Ian Proctor. (I did a drafting apprenticeship sitting across from Peter Milne - way before he came up with the Fireball .. and with Ian Nicolson also though he was a little older)
The good news is that I am still designing, building and sailing but I switched over the trimarans about 35 years ago (after 30 years of designing 600ft cargo liners etc) and now run a popular website. http://www.smalltridesign.com where I can be easily reached through a Questionnaire (in case you have more questions). My current boat is one of my exciting and fun W17 trimarans that are now being home built in 33 countries. WoodenBoat did an independent review on it in Jan 2017. I will try to attach some pics on a 2nd posting, IF I can figure out HOW ;-)) There's way more on the website if interested.
Enjoy
mike
Last edited by FM-W17 designer on Wed May 17, 2017 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flying Moth - part 2

Post by FM-W17 designer » Wed May 17, 2017 6:55 pm

To follow up on my history of the Flying Moth .. here are some pics.
The Flying Moth 'Crew Cut' was the only Mark lll that I know of and the 3 last boats were all built in Quebec, Canada .. as was the only Flying Gnat. (see pics).
For mass building with high quality, I developed a way to build the curved sidedecks, setting up the frame on a grid, with the gunwales temporarily facing towards each other. Once flipped over, the ends could be planed off and mounted to the cockpit bulkheads, making a perfect fit of the curved seats. The FM was listed (re handicap) for many years in the Dinghy Year Book, (a few % faster than the British Moth) and also featured with photos in a small boat-building book in the '60's but I've forgotten the author.
I tried several times to add pics... but looks like I'll need someone's email address as 80KB limit will not work for this. (I even tried ONE, but that did not go either .. just the 'too big' message) Any suggestions for a solution ? Sadly, my Dropbox is full ;(
cheers
mike
http://www.smalltridesign.com

Rupert
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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by Rupert » Wed May 17, 2017 7:37 pm

Thank you Mike, that was a great read - really good to hear the history of the boat, and what has happened since.
Rupert

dieharddinghysailor
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Re: It says it's a moth.....

Post by dieharddinghysailor » Wed May 17, 2017 8:35 pm

Excellent, Mike, thanks for the update. I did sail Robin Kemp's Flying Moth at Medley S.C., and loved it, I had a British Moth, built and owned by Teddy Hicks, who was our maths teacher at the Dragon School in Oxford, which Robin and I attended....and were encouraged and inspired by Ted's enthusiasm for sailing.
It was teddy Hicks that won the Brent Regatta, as per this you-tube clip of the Pathe news item you mentioned. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-zVxEBgfRQ
Your boat can be seen in the last few seconds....
I had no idea you'd built a few different versions, it's a shame it didn't catch on, but at that time there was such a glut of new designs coming out every year.

I still build,sail and race dinghies, and am enjoying living on the West Coast USA, north of Seattle, where I get together with Richard Woods from time to time.
Small world

Mike Scott

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