Historic PY numbers

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chris
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by chris » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:36 am

Yes, Pat...but...
Rupert has it correct that skill factor cannot be eliminated in a small fleet. Therefore there is a large element of 'personal' about the end results. There simply isn't enough broad data for the numbers to be boat based. I have the HAL type-by-type analysis sheet in front of me for Shearwater and our biggest fleet is just 6 lasers. Out of 23 different boat types we have sailing 12 are represented by just one boat most of the others by 2 or 3. This is partly because I have, for example, put our two graduates in different classes. One sails with the original small sail, the other with the much larger modern sail. It would not give useful data to lump them together. The analysis also gives slow/fast percentages to indicate how an individual or a boat is doing compared to the handicap actually used, whether that is a club number or the RYA given number. I can certainly look down this sheet of results and say that most of the numbers that change are a result of skill ( or in most cases lack of it)
All this will be sent in to the RYA returns next week and I shall be interested to see if their recommendations compare at all.
The RYA system will use these to feed into their data ( and they do ignore a certain level of poor performance) and I will be interested to see how their figures will compare to these. For the numbers that they issue for your particular club we only have a few boats that have enough data to even get an official number issued and they come with a confidence number. Even after 2 years of doing this scheme the confidence factor is as low as it gets!

Our sailing committee will be discussing all this for next year but I doubt if we will change much as the data is so problematic. We might perhaps run a tandem series and try them out at the end of the year. But at this stage I would certainly agree that where you only have a few boats of any one class the results are pretty meaningless ( unless you want personal handicaps which we don't)

We are a small club on a small lake. All our racing is mixed fleet as we want people to sail and join in which they do. If we insisted on fleet racing and only had recommended classes our club would have disappeared long ago. I'm sure everyone accepts that handicap racing will never be perfect!

davidh
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by davidh » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:45 pm

Well said Chris!

When I was still in the wonderful world of corporate life, our goal was the notion of 'Marketing to a factor of one' - in other words, your programming and technology platform are so good that you tailor your product down to the individual level. Oh that we could do the same with PYs.

But.... there is no reason why not!

If I had to look into the crystal ball that all journalists come equipped with, one of the trends that I see somewhere out in the not too distant future is a rethink on the whole topic of PYs. As more and more clubs input results on line, the size of the data sample grows and Jim C and his other merry men can make more meaningful changes on the base of factual information rather that guesswork.

But another part of this future change would be to see more variation from the norm - so clubs at tidal venues will sail to very different numbers than you use at Sheerwater. The other change may well be from just a single number for a boat - much in the way Pat suggested, where a class is broken down into a number of thin slices. You'd think that this only works for the development classes, but it could work for one designs too!

Exciting times..... but one thing is certain. The 'let's all sail the same boat' bubble burst ages or more back, PY sailing is with us to stay . Making that PY system work into the future will be the challenge that will face us all.

D
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JimC
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by JimC » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:13 pm

Incidentally, if anyone can lay their hands on PY lists for 1965 through to 1980 I'd be delighted to see them.

Sue, as per PM, if you PM me an email address I'll send you my cuurrent list.

cweed
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by cweed » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:17 am

Jim.

I have, as I believe other CVRDA'ers have, the 1971 Boat World Guide to Dinghies which has amongst some no go unfulfilled designs, the main classes of the day with PN's. Also includes YN1 and YN2 being primary and secondary yardstick numbers.

Let me know if you want these. ( About 100 entries)

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Ed
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by Ed » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:55 pm

Yeah, I have got 71 and also 73, then nothing much till Popular Sailing dinghies 89 & 96.

No, just found: Tony Harrison's 'A source book of Dinghies' from 1978, which seems to have some PY numbers. Of course, with all these sources, you can't tell if they are right or not and I suspect there are quite a few which are simply plucked out of the air, or made up by builders or class associations, either dropping the number to make their boat seem faster, or raising it to try and get their boat some better results in open handicap races.

If any are of help, just say the word.

cheers

eib
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by JimC » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:11 pm

Yes, that's the challenge, what's the year and the source. Better than nothing perhaps...

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Ed
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by Ed » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:23 pm

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear, I was following on from the post above, I have:

from 1970 onwards:

1971 Boat World Guide to Dinghies & Catamarans: Says PYs taken from RYA
1973 Boat World Guide No1 to Sailing Dinghies & Catamarans Editor: Charles Smith again says PYs are from RYA
1974 Dinghy Recognition: AR Burrett PYs may be RYA or class supplied?
1978 A Source Book of Dinghies Author: Tony Harrison Explains the RYA PY system, but doesn't say the PYs are from RYA, so they could be class supplied?? This book also has wide selection of Int classes and Australian classes and some with their VY numbers (Victoria Yardstick?)
1989 Popular Sailing Dinghies 2nd ed - Charles Smith Publications in conjunction with RYA (The first edition was 87 - that I don't have)
1996 Popular Sailing Dinghies 3rd ed - Charles Smith Publications: Complied by David James

I might have others, but those were the ones I have at the modern end of my shelf of Dinghy Recognition books. Neil may have others....think he has a bigger book collection than me.

If you want some of the PYs from these, I am sure we can work out a way of doing it....if it would help and results ended up as an open CVRDA resource :-)

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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JimC
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by JimC » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:36 am

I'm not being clear as well. What I'm hoping can be worked out is an archive of historical numbers that clubs can use as a basis for trial numbers for boats no longer listed. Ideally I 'd like to try and get it published as part of the RYA PY website, but for that to happen there will need to be pretty good confidence that the numbers are what the RYA published.
But if anyone in the CVRDA would like a copy as it stands mail me. It's all been more or less public domain, I don't have confidentiality concerns.
Last edited by JimC on Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pat
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by Pat » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:42 am

I'd like a copy please Jim as I can use it to add to the cvrda website - pat at cvrda dot org is my email
(Half Cut and What a Lark Removals Ltd)

Spiderman
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by Spiderman » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:54 pm

but for that to happen there will need to be pretty good confidence that the numbers are what the RYA published.
Jim,

I have the RYA portsmouth yardstick scheme YR2 booklets for the following years which might help validate some of your numbers:-
1973, 1981, 1982, 1986, 1988, 1991, 1996, 1998 and 1999.
I don't mind lending these out if that would help your archive PY number research, however, I would want them back at some stage. Please let me know if you would like to borrow any or all of them and we can try to work something out.

Regards

Ian M

WM3000
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by WM3000 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:38 pm

Well there seems to be nothing like starting a conversation about PY's to get everyone fingers typing! Thank you for your replies so far.

Well I think there is only one thing everyone agrees on: club PYs are a tricky subject, especially for the small/moderately sized clubs with all sorts of different boat classes and ages of boat. And that there will never be a "perfect" solution, just better solutions than others (if we are really lucky).

One thing I will say is that I'm not wanting to mess around with the main method our club uses to calculate race results, which is based on the RYA PYs with a few deviations. I'm just hoping to sort out a secondary/dual method of calculating results. Our club is crying out for methods of awarding glassware down the fleet away from the usual suspects, and I want this to be one of the methods we will use. Hopefully, by using it for "secondary prizes" I'll get rid of issues with handicap bandits (what a great description!), and it won't affect the club members who've spent their good money on new boats. Not that I think that old boats are only worth secondary prizes, I'm more thinking about practical ways of getting round tricky situations. And, of course, it would be nice to do the occasional "one day" club events entirely based on these handicaps.

But hopefully, if I get something worthwhile out of it, the data I produce can be used by other clubs trying to make sense of what to do with their own handicap systems re older boats of all ages.

JimC has now very kindly sent me his database of PYs. I'm currently chuckling to myself at the massive amount of data I'm going to be working with; I doubt if I'll be chuckling when I've actually started work... But, yes, with just a quick look through the data it shows some really obvious trends about how some classes have virtually re-invented themselves, whilst still claiming to be the same class with just one handicap number.

Thank you Ed and Rupert for offers of "missing" PY numbers. I will be in touch. Anyone else out there as well please get in touch! Then that will split the load of work of finding, copying and sending... I will also try the N12 forum to see if we can share the load with anyone from there.

Sue

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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by Keith66 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:27 am

Handicaps are a can of worms for sure. My other half has records of the BYC Nore race going back donkeys years, this is a 16 mile race round the Thames estuary & over the years has been very well supported by both dinghies & cruisers. Trouble is we have found over the years that its not always clear cut that newer boats are faster. Often we have seen a supposed " obsolete old crock" shine on the day & produce a spanking performance that makes everthing else look sick. There are simply too many variables.

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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by Rupert » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:00 am

If you simply want to move the prizes around, then introduction of silver and bronze fleets can work, as can novice trophies, trophies for particular classes or fast/medium/slow fleets - whatever suits the boats and people you have, all without opening the can of PY worms.

Historical numbers are a great resource to have, and will give an excellent starting point for queries (people like things in writing!) but Jim is right that if the RYA have going to put their name to them, they need to be confirmed - certainly an entry in a 1970's book with no back up source would be problematic - there are too many mistakes that I (and Ed!) know of in those books he listed to trust them completely. Spiderman's collection of YR2 booklets, on the otherhand, is perfect. What surprises me is there isn't a shelf of them somewhere at the RYA.
Rupert

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Ed
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by Ed » Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:17 am

Totally agreed.....

although I am less that sure I have your total confidence in the PYs supplied by the RYA in those early days. OK so the core, main classes should be fine, but I
think you have to take the py for some of the smaller more obscure classes with a certain sceptiscm, as indeed I would think you should do these days as well.

this history of the PY is interesting:

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDoc ... 500_07.pdf

eib
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Re: Historic PY numbers

Post by JimC » Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:02 pm

Rupert wrote:What surprises me is there isn't a shelf of them somewhere at the RYA.
Too many office moves... They go back to 1980 in off site storage, but nothing older.

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