Chris,
I think the answer to your question is one that lifts the lid on the whole PY system - and how it is managed.
For the UK (though I'd expect that a lot of other National Authorities take a lot of heed of what happens here) the process is as follows. The RYA write out to sailing secretaries of affliated clubs and request that they complete a questionnaire. This details the relative performance of boats PLUS any changes made locally.
Twice a year the RYA techies then meet for a mamoth number crunching exercise - out of which comes the PY numbers that are then listed. Now the way this SHOULD work is that the information should go two ways.... Clubs should take it, review it and then modify on a local basis to reflect what happens within the clubs racing scene.
For example - the Contender: a very difficult boat to sail in handicap events. But, back in the late 1970's, Weston hosted a whole troupe of antipodean sailors... (who lived in camper vans, slept on various floors.....) just as - Pete Newlands, Tony Smith and Richard Gladwell. As Weston was already home to the likes of Dave Pitman, keith Paul and Geoff Whitfield a club race there took on a new meaning. The result of course was an uplift of all the fleet which was reflected in Weston applying a new, much harder PY number to the boat.
No complaints - this is how it should work but sadly it doesn't. Too many clubs take the easy line that the RYA guidelines are set in stone and therefore fail to use the flexibility in the system to ensure fair sailing. INterestingly, a comment was made in another string about the Phantoms H'cap - a good point there as a well sailed Pahntom with carbon rig could well sail of 1030 -1035...and still win!
The othre problem facing the RYA - as 'owners' of the system is that the best boats tend not to sail in local H'cap events as they are out on the circuit. The stronger the class association the more this 'skews' the results by the simple factor of providing more opportunity to sail elsewhere (from the home club) and on a class basis only.
Sailing in the UK is changing - and changing fast with one possible outcome being that the sort of regular club handicap sailing we see so much of might actually become something of the past. Hmmnn , now that is a thought to ponder on!!
D
Development speed
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rupert</i>
<br />Jim, the 9.46 might be right, but the 1.2 isn't...the Firefly went from 100 to 124 - no time to do others now...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I haven't got every year, but according to the data I do have the Firefly was 100 in 1975, 101 in 1976, 121 in 1980 and 124 in 1985. 101 to 121 is near enough 1.2.
The "gold standard" boats that have had completely stable PYs over the years are Enterprise, Mirror two handed, Solo and Wayfarer.
<br />Jim, the 9.46 might be right, but the 1.2 isn't...the Firefly went from 100 to 124 - no time to do others now...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I haven't got every year, but according to the data I do have the Firefly was 100 in 1975, 101 in 1976, 121 in 1980 and 124 in 1985. 101 to 121 is near enough 1.2.
The "gold standard" boats that have had completely stable PYs over the years are Enterprise, Mirror two handed, Solo and Wayfarer.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by davidh</i>
The result of course was an uplift of all the fleet which was reflected in Weston applying a new, much harder PY number to the boat... No complaints - this is how it should work...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Err no David. That's exactly how it *shouldn't* work. You shouldn't change a handicap because the standard of the sailors at the club has gone up.
Not that it doesn't happen. I remember a club on the Isle of Wight dropping the Cherub handicap because the Cherub National Champion always beat the guys that finished midway in the RS400 Champs! There might have been a case for changing the Cherub handicap, but that wasn't it!
The result of course was an uplift of all the fleet which was reflected in Weston applying a new, much harder PY number to the boat... No complaints - this is how it should work...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Err no David. That's exactly how it *shouldn't* work. You shouldn't change a handicap because the standard of the sailors at the club has gone up.
Not that it doesn't happen. I remember a club on the Isle of Wight dropping the Cherub handicap because the Cherub National Champion always beat the guys that finished midway in the RS400 Champs! There might have been a case for changing the Cherub handicap, but that wasn't it!
Jim,
The situation at Weston was that the standard of the whole fleet got uplifted - which in the end attracted a stiffer handicap, a result that was only fair. What is NOT fair is to use the PY system for 'personal handicaps' as that has been proved time and time again NOT to work. Success in sailing should come through developing a boat's speed...practice...... good gear and not a case of 'buggins turn' which is what Personal H'caps can become.
The answer of course to the inequalities of the PY system is....eek, one design sailing which ever more nowadays means a plastic fantastic.
Help!
D
The situation at Weston was that the standard of the whole fleet got uplifted - which in the end attracted a stiffer handicap, a result that was only fair. What is NOT fair is to use the PY system for 'personal handicaps' as that has been proved time and time again NOT to work. Success in sailing should come through developing a boat's speed...practice...... good gear and not a case of 'buggins turn' which is what Personal H'caps can become.
The answer of course to the inequalities of the PY system is....eek, one design sailing which ever more nowadays means a plastic fantastic.
Help!
D
David H
the RYa give a method for calculating how to change a PY and, yes they do ask clubs to do this and send in returns. A problem with their mathematical method is that it assumes a reasonable number of same class boats sailing in a handicap fleet. I can't remember the details but it starts by discounting the bottom third in that class ( to remove sailors whose sailing is poor) then theres an average of the results of the rest and you look to see if this average is better or worse than the given PY. It includes some method of ruling out crew -skill (but probably doesn't do that completely). I think I'm right in saying that the PY then published isn't in fact based on the ultimate speed the top sailor should acheive but is based somewhere around 'better-than average'.
I expect many clubs that do handicap racing are like ours and may, on a good day, just have up to three boats of any one class sailing and most of the races may only have one of a class. If they could always bank on say, 6 or more boats of a class then presumably they would be doing a class race anyway. Because of this I suggest that the RYA's method of calculating results for their returns renders them suspect. In reality I bet it comes down to either the club never changes a py and only uses those issued. or changes a py by it's own judgement ( and how do you rule Crew-skill out of that?)
I expect many clubs that do handicap racing are like ours and may, on a good day, just have up to three boats of any one class sailing and most of the races may only have one of a class. If they could always bank on say, 6 or more boats of a class then presumably they would be doing a class race anyway. Because of this I suggest that the RYA's method of calculating results for their returns renders them suspect. In reality I bet it comes down to either the club never changes a py and only uses those issued. or changes a py by it's own judgement ( and how do you rule Crew-skill out of that?)
Chris,
Sometime later this year I hope to be able to speak on this with a bit more in the way of real understanding - I'm on the list to be an Observer at the Annual RYA PY number review. I've been told it's mainly to do with number crunching and is as exciting as the proverbial paint drying - but i'll go anyway and see what's what.
Again though your point is well made about the lack of depth in the numbers used for the analysis. I was spectating at the Chichester Snowflake, one of the South Coast's biggest mid winter events when Dick Batt caame out with the comment that it was like Noah's Ark - the classes were there 'two by two' - and he wasn't exaggerating!
That said..... .in the end, after watching a lot of Handicap racing for a long period of time, my view would be that in the end a good crew will come to the front irrespective of whatthey sail.
D
Sometime later this year I hope to be able to speak on this with a bit more in the way of real understanding - I'm on the list to be an Observer at the Annual RYA PY number review. I've been told it's mainly to do with number crunching and is as exciting as the proverbial paint drying - but i'll go anyway and see what's what.
Again though your point is well made about the lack of depth in the numbers used for the analysis. I was spectating at the Chichester Snowflake, one of the South Coast's biggest mid winter events when Dick Batt caame out with the comment that it was like Noah's Ark - the classes were there 'two by two' - and he wasn't exaggerating!
That said..... .in the end, after watching a lot of Handicap racing for a long period of time, my view would be that in the end a good crew will come to the front irrespective of whatthey sail.
D
David H
The RYA's list of published PYs also breaks down into Priamry, Secondary, Recorded Number and More Returns Required, which is fairly self explanatory and shows that system doesn't have complete confidence in itself for total reliability!
It's quite interesting to see that quite a lot of well known classes don't have a better grouping than Recorded Number. Even the Firefly is only a secodary Yardstick and that was the starting point of the whole system in Ye Olden days. It was given 100 and everything else was expressed as a percemtage faster or slower than that standard.
The system relies on lots of good data from clubs and I bet it just doesn't get all it needs.
If clubs never changes a number the published PY presumably will never change.
The RYA website has all the details under Technical, I think.
It's quite interesting to see that quite a lot of well known classes don't have a better grouping than Recorded Number. Even the Firefly is only a secodary Yardstick and that was the starting point of the whole system in Ye Olden days. It was given 100 and everything else was expressed as a percemtage faster or slower than that standard.
The system relies on lots of good data from clubs and I bet it just doesn't get all it needs.
If clubs never changes a number the published PY presumably will never change.
The RYA website has all the details under Technical, I think.
I have read what is being said about py's and whilst I dont understand much of it i do know that with my enterprise py1116 I find that the rest of the fleet have finished way before me. I know i could spend quite a bit of cash and get new sail and rigging but is it worth it on a 1960s boat. this is why I enjoy gomming to cvrda meets as there even thou i am still last I can see the fleet.
The modern ents are so far adavnced of mine that they could be a differnt class
oh well see everyone in wells with a bit of luck
Stephen
The modern ents are so far adavnced of mine that they could be a differnt class
oh well see everyone in wells with a bit of luck
Stephen
Getting as bad as the rest. Two boats and two tenders
The modern Enterprises will be lighter, stiffer, tweaked to the best hull shape within the rules, have new sails, mast and equipment, stiffer centreboard and rudder. So yes, it is almost impossible for old one designs to keep up with new ones (with some exceptions), especially on open water where these things matter more than on a river. As most classes have gone this way, it makes sense that the PY remains the same, as it is a reletive measure of speed between classes. It also explains why development class handicaps very often don't move quicker on PY as fast as one might expect...one designs are also getting quicker. Thank goodness for the cvrda!
Rupert
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JimC</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rupert</i>
<br />Jim, the 9.46 might be right, but the 1.2 isn't...the Firefly went from 100 to 124 - no time to do others now...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I haven't got every year, but according to the data I do have the Firefly was 100 in 1975, 101 in 1976, 121 in 1980 and 124 in 1985. 101 to 121 is near enough 1.2.
The "gold standard" boats that have had completely stable PYs over the years are Enterprise, Mirror two handed, Solo and Wayfarer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I stand corrected!
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rupert</i>
<br />Jim, the 9.46 might be right, but the 1.2 isn't...the Firefly went from 100 to 124 - no time to do others now...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I haven't got every year, but according to the data I do have the Firefly was 100 in 1975, 101 in 1976, 121 in 1980 and 124 in 1985. 101 to 121 is near enough 1.2.
The "gold standard" boats that have had completely stable PYs over the years are Enterprise, Mirror two handed, Solo and Wayfarer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I stand corrected!
Rupert
Hi Davidh
I am sure you will find the PY meeting very interesting. I sat on the committee for several years and there was much head scratching as we munched through numbers. Often being frustrated when the returns did not match what we knew was happening the the performance of the actual boats. The Int Moth was always a good case.
The system may not be perfect, but it was always disappointing to see how few clubs actually had bothered to return numbers correctly and few still bothered to actually use the method in the book to actually give real data. To many never adjusted the figures and many just altered a few as they felt right!
I shall be interested to see your thoughts.
I am sure you will find the PY meeting very interesting. I sat on the committee for several years and there was much head scratching as we munched through numbers. Often being frustrated when the returns did not match what we knew was happening the the performance of the actual boats. The Int Moth was always a good case.
The system may not be perfect, but it was always disappointing to see how few clubs actually had bothered to return numbers correctly and few still bothered to actually use the method in the book to actually give real data. To many never adjusted the figures and many just altered a few as they felt right!
I shall be interested to see your thoughts.
http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FF12 ... umbers.pdf
The link is to the RYA site and explains how the yardsticks are worked out.
I think you will struggle to convince your club that handicap adjustments should be made for an older boat in a class which has remained a strict one design, dispite what has been said here about boats getting quicker. Owners of old Development class boats have enough trouble with all that!
The link is to the RYA site and explains how the yardsticks are worked out.
I think you will struggle to convince your club that handicap adjustments should be made for an older boat in a class which has remained a strict one design, dispite what has been said here about boats getting quicker. Owners of old Development class boats have enough trouble with all that!
Rupert
There must be so many clubs out there who don't send in returns mainly because of the effortinvolved yet have two or three comparatively rare boats racing regularly with advantageous handicaps. How many other clubs have YW Dayboats regularly on the water? And have they done full returns on them? I doubt if we have at Shearwater.
(Half Cut and What a Lark Removals Ltd)
There has been a lot of discussion on the forum about the relative merits of various boats for handicap sailing and how fair or otherwise the Portsmouth Yardstick system is. I've two further observations onthe subject which will either 'kill' the subject or else will be the equivalent of trying to douse a fire - with petrol!!!
Okay...here goes........................
I'd say that despite the many failings of the PY system across a whole season things tend to balance themselves out. The well sailed, well prepared boats do well and the natural 'pecking order' is reasonably fair. Of course, you do get the exceptions, the British Moth being raced on a large open sea course or the 505/FD/Osprey sailed on a small lake but essentially the system works.
The other thought is the reason 'why have the system in the first place' and that is a much deeper issue. Since the post war years dinghy sailing in the UK has been s story of ever increasing fragmentation, new classes arrive and yet the old ones cling on diluting the 'fleets' even more.
I was sent to work out in Madrid just a few years back..... so I sought out the nearest dinghy club to find I could sail a Laser or a Snipe (or a Dart but we won't go there). Sailors were effectively told 'what' they'd ail. Of course, other clubs sail other classes BUT Spain, as an exmaple, does tend to focu sit's sailing activities in fewer classes so racing tends to be more on the class basis rather than handicap.
I'll not try to say which system is best BUT.... think of the latest scene in the singlehanders. There's the Musto Skiff and the RS700. Take off all the insignias, put them side by side and you've two peas from the same pod almost. In OZ maybe the answer would have been to call it an 'Open 15' singlehander and let them get on with it - development can continue yet no one is worrying about handicaps.
A step forward - or a step back? Crystal Balls time I think!!
D
Okay...here goes........................
I'd say that despite the many failings of the PY system across a whole season things tend to balance themselves out. The well sailed, well prepared boats do well and the natural 'pecking order' is reasonably fair. Of course, you do get the exceptions, the British Moth being raced on a large open sea course or the 505/FD/Osprey sailed on a small lake but essentially the system works.
The other thought is the reason 'why have the system in the first place' and that is a much deeper issue. Since the post war years dinghy sailing in the UK has been s story of ever increasing fragmentation, new classes arrive and yet the old ones cling on diluting the 'fleets' even more.
I was sent to work out in Madrid just a few years back..... so I sought out the nearest dinghy club to find I could sail a Laser or a Snipe (or a Dart but we won't go there). Sailors were effectively told 'what' they'd ail. Of course, other clubs sail other classes BUT Spain, as an exmaple, does tend to focu sit's sailing activities in fewer classes so racing tends to be more on the class basis rather than handicap.
I'll not try to say which system is best BUT.... think of the latest scene in the singlehanders. There's the Musto Skiff and the RS700. Take off all the insignias, put them side by side and you've two peas from the same pod almost. In OZ maybe the answer would have been to call it an 'Open 15' singlehander and let them get on with it - development can continue yet no one is worrying about handicaps.
A step forward - or a step back? Crystal Balls time I think!!
D
David H