Epoxy or Varnish and other bits!

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RichardB2
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Epoxy or Varnish and other bits!

Post by RichardB2 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:30 pm

Hello,

After some advice please.

I am currently restoring Merlin 908 'Wishbone' a 1959 a Proctor XI built by Wyche & Coppock. Have already received some excellent advice from Mervyn Allen & Garry Rucklidge on hull and deck repairs, currently repalcing C/B ears and cap but wanted to ask others what their view on using epoxy (SP320) on the decks in lieu of traditional varnish, Epifanes, International, Blakes would be. Pros & Cons.

Also the boat is hog stepped and I note that early merlins are deck stepped is it worth converting the boat to deck step, task seems relatively simple by fitting two king post from underside of deck to hog

Finally....... internally the varish is pretty sound in most places the intention is to merley rub back and re-coat. At one stage I had considered actually painting the inside with a two pack light grey paint I have but thought this might be committing a cardinal sin as I am aiming to keep her as original as possible all bar blocks, sheets and cleats! Any thoughts on this aswell please.

Much thanks in advance.


Richard Battey MR 908 & OK 1946

RichardB2
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Post by RichardB2 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:33 pm

I knew there was another question!!!


Old screw holes. I have filled some with a mix of microfibres and fine sawdust (saved from hours of rubbing decks) to get decent match are there any other fillers you could recommed with a quicker curing time?


Thanks again.

Richard

roger
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Post by roger » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:55 pm

Hi Richard for some years I have been avoiding replacing the poor quality ply on the decks of my old GP. Every autumn they would go dark in patches and I strippped it all off several times and revarnished thinking that might save me the job of redecking. Last spring as a last resort I stripped it all down to bare wood and coated with west system useing a roller to apply it. I have to say she has been out in the damp all this summer and again this autumn and the results are so far pretty good with very little marking in the wood.
As far a varnish is concerned there is a very good article on varnishing elswhere on this website.
Good luck with the restoration and lok forward to seeing you on the water.

Alan P.
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Post by Alan P. » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:56 pm

Richard.
I put two coats of West System on the decks of OK 1211 some 10 years ago and have been pleased with it. Although she lives in a garage now she was kept outside all year and suffered no damp penetration. I have used single pack varnishes of various brands over the top, just making sure they contained UV inhibitors. I have found that quite heavy knocks and scratches have never penetrated down to the wood and that a rub down and a fresh coat or two of varnish is all that was/is required to restore the looks.
OK 1963 has been epoxied too in the distant past with several layers of varnish on top. This boat had been laid up in a garage for two years when I bought it late summer 06. It had not had a fresh coat of varnish for many years. As I just wanted to get it back in use asp, I rubbed down and gave it just one coat of "International Yacht Varnish with UV inhibitors" from B&Q. The boat was then kept and sailed all winter at Frensham, a damp place if ever there was. But by March the decks had no damp penetration at all.
The epoxy did lift in small local areas along the rubbing strip were the heavy pvc cover rubbed. I suspect that the epoxy had not keyed too well when it was applied. I have never had this with 1211.
OK 1211 Peter Crew wood 1968
Gull 2892 MK6 2014
Dart/Sprint 15 1442 about 1989

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Ed
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Post by Ed » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:11 am

I think I kinda wrote my thoughts on this in the bit on varnishing I wrote....

In my humble opinion it all depends how long you want it to work for....and how much work you are prepared to do on upkeep.

Hard varnishes - two packs and epoxies are much less permeable, letting much less water through. They last longer than soft traditional varnishes, but are a damn nuisance to apply and to remove. If wood is stable and really dry and you are applying it in good conditions (dry and not humid), you can get a good finish, especially if you are prepared to polish up a bit.

You can have problems if you have any holes in coating especially end grain. Water gets in, but is unable to evaporate out through varnish. This can cause lots of problems - white marks and black marks and lots of rot.

It last longer.....but maybe only a year or two longer and when you get around to trying to remove it.....it can be very hard indeed....and is likely to really damage the veneer of ply.

Epoxies have little uv protector and as Alan says, you have to apply (and keep applying as it loses protection) a uv-protecting coat of a normal varnish anyway. If you don't, it will yellow and fail quite fast. They can be hard to patch, especially if you use a slightly different coating as they often darken the wood....but each seems to do it slightly differently.

It can work well to stabilise a large flat area....as long as there is no bending or movement, in which case water will get in....see above.

Soft Traditional Varnishes are easy to apply....and more importantly for long-term care, more easy to remove and easy to patch. They don't last quite as long. You should top a coat or two every year (if you sail a lot) and every two years if not. This is due (as above) to the UV-filter being gradually eaten away, leaving no uv-protection.

They are more permeable. Water can get through, but more importantly it can get out again after it has been waterlogged. Often with no damage to wood or varnish.

I am not really a fan of epoxy or other hard varnishes.....unless.....

It is a new build - stable & dry and being applied in perfect conditions.

It is a very hard-wearing area.....such as a moulded ply....and should be pretty stable.....although would still prefer a twin pack poly rather than an epoxy.....as you only have to cover the epoxy with varnish anyway.

It is totally buggered, shot with delaminating ply etc - epoxy can stabilise this and give you a year or three until it dies - but then you will have to remove the lot.....wood and all.

Hope that helps

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


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neil
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Post by neil » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:24 am

I was thinking about exposy or varnish for the decks of my newly acquired Finn....and after talking to Ed I'm sticking to varnish.

As my workshop is draughty and unheated I know that varnish will be fine. I did the Tideway a couple of years ago in the Winter using International Schooner over a couple of coats of UCP and although it took a little longer to cure than usual it gave an excellent finish and still look great.

So I'll be varnishing however I was shocked to see a 750ml tin of Schooner is now over £17. When I did the Tideway a couple of years ago I ordered from a trade supplier that Kevin with a Dragon was buying from - I'm sure I was only paying £12 a tin, though I was buying 6 at a time and going in on the back of Kevin's large orders.

If I can get a discount again for buying in bulk is anyone interested in combining purchasing power?


and if you've not seen it here's Ed's rather excellent varnishing guide
http://www.cvrda.org/boats/hintstips/pd ... hing_1.pdf
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roger
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Post by roger » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:54 am

Neil

Always interested in discounted varnish if its good quality. I made the mistake of useing B&Qs "yacht varnish" once. Never again :cry:

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pegasus
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Post by pegasus » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:00 am

Yes me too i dont think ill have enough for the winter varnish on the pegg

Greg
Pegasus 166(The Darkside) SOLD
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Garry R
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Post by Garry R » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:11 am

I am a real fan of Blake's Duragloss. I did Gannet with that over a base of G$ (think Chris did the same with the Albacore). Having done Secret Water with epoxy - never again. Like Ed said water got underneath and it is totally buggered so the decks will have to be stripped off and I will go for a single pack and am thinking of Blakes. To be fair the hull looks fine but the ply is not good. I think the epoxy cracked or there was a joint problem.

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Post by Rupert » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:43 am

I'd have to agree with Ed on all this - epoxy is great until it goes wrong, then it means replacing bits of boat...
The other product good for old wood that needs a few more years of life, rather than looking perfect in a museum is pond seal. V8 or G4 (or vice versa...) lets you put 3 coats on in a day, and gives a clear, solid finish. The nearest thing in the boat world is UCP. However, don't put ordinary varnish over the top for at least a week, as the chemicals eveporating from the pond seal stop it drying properly, it seems for about the same length of time...The other problems are that like epoxy and unlike varnish it doesn't "flow", and it kills rollers in seconds. Available in all good garden centres!
The only non "proper" varnish I've ever been happy with is Blackfriars Yacht Varnish. Unless I was going completely over the top and buying Epifanes, I'd not bother with anything else. I certainly prefer it to Schooner, but then varnish is one of those things that depend very much on the person putting it on liking the feel of it as it spreads!
Rupert

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Post by Garry R » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:00 am

Ah yes - varnishing is close to a fetish!! After all it is the first time after months of scraping and sanding that you get the first idea of what colour your boat is going to turn out!

As a matter of interest Rupert have you tried coating G4 a year after is was first applied? I would like to pop some onto Gannet's inside hull but with all those ribs I don't want to have to sand to get a key.

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jpa_wfsc
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Post by jpa_wfsc » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:29 pm

Garry Rucklidge wrote:
As a matter of interest Rupert have you tried coating G4 a year after is was first applied? I would like to pop some onto Gannet's inside hull but with all those ribs I don't want to have to sand to get a key.
From the suppliers I note... "Three coats of V8 will usually surface, but on very porous render it may be necessary to apply an additional coat. Avoid applying too thickly and ensure V8 is applied evenly.
V8 can be reapplied as soon as the previous coat is dry, normally within 1-3 hours dependant on temperature and weather conditions. Re-coating must take place within three days. If left longer the previous coat must be abraded well, before applying further coats."

I assume G4 is much the same?
j./

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!!!! Not CVRDA !!!!
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Post by Garry R » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:44 pm

Dammit

roger
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Post by roger » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:07 pm

Have to say very pleased with G4 on Shoestring certainly looks lovely but not the easiest in the world to apply.

RichardB2
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Post by RichardB2 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:40 pm

Thanks for all your replies. Quite an interesting split of opinion! The varnish route does appear to be the easiest although I doo keep getting drawn to using epoxy given the strong and hi-build quality as opposed to varnish and the number of coats required to build up to a decent finish. Alan/ how much West did you need? 1, 2 or 4kg pack the latter being about £100+!!!!

I had noted Garry's comment on the G8 pond sealer as we had spoken about this before. My only reservation is putting a pond sealer on wood just doesn't seem right somehow!

As for the inside I will rub back the exisitng varnish as it is very sound and re-varnish in single pack. did a bit of quick Photoshop image trickery last night as to what the internals would look like painted ...... B awful. varnish it is.

Again thanks for all your comments.


Richard

Merlin 908
OK 1946

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