Hi Gozzy,
firstly I was delighted and proud to see my boat on display.
For braces you will need to position the boat as mentioned and the thwart will certainly help that. Then get some good quality 2in x1in (or similar) lengths of wood and place them horizontally across the boat and screw them firmly into place. About three should be enough if the foredeck supports are left in situ placed roughly at the shrouds, the centre thwart (which you may leave in until it is replaced or putting back the centreplate) and at the level of the back of the side benches. One across the transom might help also if the transom is coming of.
If you can't bear to screw into the decks try going into the inside underneath of the sidedecks where it won't show or look for pre-existing holes such as fixings for cleats etc. The knee that suppurts the back of the sidebench is also a good strongpoint where damage wont show as its covered on on both sides by the buoyancy bags.
The Hot moulding tends to keep its shape quite well but I suspect it is a bit brittle and doesnt like being flexed too much and this bracing might help prevent that (and any assotiated tendency to delaminate)
You still have the side decks on which are a very important scource of strength and as noted are best left alone until there is some other suport neccesary. If the boat spent time stored upsidedown then there might be some secret rot lurking under the side deck where rainwater collects on the upturned gunwhale but from the state of the keel it seems likely she was left abandoned in a dinghy park and full of water for a few winters.
Thinking of this, what kind of trolley was she on when you got her? If it was a cradle that's fine but if its one of those trolleys with two tiny pads (usually unpadded by now) positioned under each bilge you can sometimes find this has damaged the underlying lamination as all the weight of a boat full of water may have been concentrated at this point. What is amazing is that this kind of damage is not too common and is a tribute to the strength of the construction method.
While the centreboard case and hog are out I might even devise some sort of mechanism to prevent warping where the edges are unsuported but I guess you have to use your own ingenuity here. Eg: Use the screw holes for the supersuck selfbailers as a fixing point.
In my profession we are always told in training that "your patients are your textbooks" and that notes you take will be the basis of any future textbook. It seems to me the best thing is to collect printouts of all of our ramblings and you'll have your own repair manual!
As far as the Left lateral position is concerned I have to say it is the prefered position for inspection of the bottom but when it comes to surgery generally a supine position is used. On a similar vein, I prefer to sleep on my back even if my wife does say I breath noisily that way.
Looks like you'll be needing an outdoor lean to for the bicycles then!
Regards
Firefly MKII Centreboard Case
I very much doubt that there is that much rot - if there was, I'd expect the rest of the boat to be in so much of a state it wouldn't be worth doing the job...If there is that much rot, check the transom area very carefully, as I'd think the boat has been left full of water for a year or 2, and they rot very easily in the triangle at the back eack side of the stern knee, and if very bad, all the way round the transom.
As for bracing, so pieces of 3x1 clamped (very firmly) to the decks with the boat still in the right shape (ie with the thwart still in) will stop her ending up an inch too wide once you have put her back together...
If you support the boat on the turn of the bilge (the most rounded bit) when she is the right way up, it will leave very little pressure on the keel area. Tyres with carpet over them work as well as anything, though a purpose built cradle will be best for a long time sitting like that.
As for bracing, so pieces of 3x1 clamped (very firmly) to the decks with the boat still in the right shape (ie with the thwart still in) will stop her ending up an inch too wide once you have put her back together...
If you support the boat on the turn of the bilge (the most rounded bit) when she is the right way up, it will leave very little pressure on the keel area. Tyres with carpet over them work as well as anything, though a purpose built cradle will be best for a long time sitting like that.
Rupert
Thanks guys, I now understand a little more on the support of the boat.
I haven’t cut the boat yet, I need to be really sure before I chop into my baby! The boat only has a launching trolley which has a large foam pad that supports the boat (sounds like the one I shouldn’t have Michael
)
The green area on the diagram was to show where I would cut back the outer veneers as you said Ed.
I will now try to get the boat supported and braced properly and update with some pictures. How does this sound?
I could fix four fittings 2 either side of my garage and lift the boat by using 2 pieces of webbing or similar. The boat would then hang a foot or so off the floor where I could use tyres to support either side of the keel area on the hull. Or:
Put the boat with one tyre under the bow and 2 tyres under the stern. Then use 2 pieces of webbing or similar tied around the middle of the boat which would then support the keel area.
So Ed are you saying? I should just cut out the areas that are rotted, then cut back into the outer veneers and refit a new piece of wood. If I wanted a good look I could then take a 3 inch section the length of my centreboard case and fit small angled pieces of new veneer either side of the hull to match the original wood? Actually as I’m typing it’s making sense
If this is the case I am still unsure how to go about the hog. This seems to be one complete piece to me so would I need to cut this piece out completely?
Sorry if I’m not quite grasping it, still getting used to all these new terms
Thanks again for the help, if it wasn’t for you good folks my boat would resemble a glass bottom boat and I would be in the garden slowly rocking back and forth
I haven’t cut the boat yet, I need to be really sure before I chop into my baby! The boat only has a launching trolley which has a large foam pad that supports the boat (sounds like the one I shouldn’t have Michael
) The green area on the diagram was to show where I would cut back the outer veneers as you said Ed.
I will now try to get the boat supported and braced properly and update with some pictures. How does this sound?
I could fix four fittings 2 either side of my garage and lift the boat by using 2 pieces of webbing or similar. The boat would then hang a foot or so off the floor where I could use tyres to support either side of the keel area on the hull. Or:
Put the boat with one tyre under the bow and 2 tyres under the stern. Then use 2 pieces of webbing or similar tied around the middle of the boat which would then support the keel area.
So Ed are you saying? I should just cut out the areas that are rotted, then cut back into the outer veneers and refit a new piece of wood. If I wanted a good look I could then take a 3 inch section the length of my centreboard case and fit small angled pieces of new veneer either side of the hull to match the original wood? Actually as I’m typing it’s making sense
If this is the case I am still unsure how to go about the hog. This seems to be one complete piece to me so would I need to cut this piece out completely?
Sorry if I’m not quite grasping it, still getting used to all these new terms
Thanks again for the help, if it wasn’t for you good folks my boat would resemble a glass bottom boat and I would be in the garden slowly rocking back and forth
-
Michael Brigg
- Posts: 1663
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:11 pm
- Location: Gosport, UK
Something like that won a medal at Chelsea flower show a couple of years ago.
The designer chopped a firefly in half in the way that you decommission your "inefficient" wooden fishing trawler to get a grant from the EEC and upended each half in his show piece as an arbour. Alan Titchmarsh thought it was "very amusing." and got drunk in it with Diarmid
Glad to say it didn't catch on otherwise we'd have a firefly class as near dead as our small operation fishing industry!
The designer chopped a firefly in half in the way that you decommission your "inefficient" wooden fishing trawler to get a grant from the EEC and upended each half in his show piece as an arbour. Alan Titchmarsh thought it was "very amusing." and got drunk in it with Diarmid
Glad to say it didn't catch on otherwise we'd have a firefly class as near dead as our small operation fishing industry!
Michael Brigg
Just a quick piece of info needed. Have started cutting away the plywood insert in the hull - good job as it was pretty well shot even though it looked ok. All crumbly in the middle. The hole is about 15" x 4" and I have cut back to good wood in the middle section of the original agba. What I would like to know is how wide a "flange" should I leave to glue the new agba onto bearing in mind that the bilge keel supports one edge and the new joint will be under there so pretty well supported and then half way across the width the strip for "grip" on the inside will run along the length of the new pieces on the inside. Having seen the size of the hole I am going to have to be economical with the agba Rupert sent me - think I have just enough to do it!! The first bits of cosmetic stuff at the transom replacing the epoxy filler have gone in well. Not a great colour match but looks better than filler if I want to varnish.
The Agba I sent you is too dark, I know, but it was all Robbins had at the time...whether they have any closer matching stuff now I don't know. If anyone knows where the really golden colour veneers are available, let me know, please. If you need more Garry, let me know - it'll cost you another pint, mind!
Rupert
Robbins do sometimes have real 'golden' coloured Agba. I have a leaf or two....but am afraid I don't really want to pass them on. It is a pretty damn good colour match for 40 year old Fairey Marine Agba. I have never seen it for sale anywhere else.
It is just a case of sometimes they do....and sometimes they don't.
The only confusion I see is that many of the guys at Robbins don't see or realise there is a difference between their Kyaha and their Agba veneers. Both are sold as 'construction' veneers rather than 'cosmetic' veneers and tend to get put in same pile. If you ask for Kyaha.....or Agba....they show you the same pile. There is of course quite a big difference, the Kyaha is darker with a more confused grain. The Agba is more resinous and straighter grain. The bits I bought were also a bit dry and brittle with most leafs having some shakes or cracks. Since then I have seen a more plentiful supply of slightly better quality. But it does depend on what they have got at the time.
I am afraid I can't remember the name of the guy who does know their way around the veneers....but if you ask I am sure they would get him for you. It certainly does help to go their in person.
Of course this does not help you Gary.....If I was still living in Bristol, I would offer to go and have a poke around and get some for you, but I am not sure when I next go up (maybe the 24th Jan??). I would be a bit worried if you are tight on material, because I always have quite a high chuck-out rate, due to cracking veneer....and over-enthusiastic trimming.
The other thing we could try.....is asking Steve Moore who is making the Jollyboat from new as this looks like he is using Agba.. He might have another source?
cheers
eib
It is just a case of sometimes they do....and sometimes they don't.
The only confusion I see is that many of the guys at Robbins don't see or realise there is a difference between their Kyaha and their Agba veneers. Both are sold as 'construction' veneers rather than 'cosmetic' veneers and tend to get put in same pile. If you ask for Kyaha.....or Agba....they show you the same pile. There is of course quite a big difference, the Kyaha is darker with a more confused grain. The Agba is more resinous and straighter grain. The bits I bought were also a bit dry and brittle with most leafs having some shakes or cracks. Since then I have seen a more plentiful supply of slightly better quality. But it does depend on what they have got at the time.
I am afraid I can't remember the name of the guy who does know their way around the veneers....but if you ask I am sure they would get him for you. It certainly does help to go their in person.
Of course this does not help you Gary.....If I was still living in Bristol, I would offer to go and have a poke around and get some for you, but I am not sure when I next go up (maybe the 24th Jan??). I would be a bit worried if you are tight on material, because I always have quite a high chuck-out rate, due to cracking veneer....and over-enthusiastic trimming.
The other thing we could try.....is asking Steve Moore who is making the Jollyboat from new as this looks like he is using Agba.. He might have another source?
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
For support:
I think many things would work, you just want to avoid too many point loadings. one tyre at front and two either side of hull towards transom would do it. Or turn boat over and use three milk crates, one at bow and one at each corner of transom.
I often just lay boat on an old mattress on the floor, which lets me move it around quite easily.
I think that some form of wood brace across boat to replace thwart would be a good idea though.
How much to cut out:
For my way of thinking, I would remove all rotten wood....but leave the good wood. so you have various holes around the place and missing bits of hog etc.
For Hog etc, I would then cut scarfs into all the hard-wood bits and replace just those. If you have two holes a couple of inches apart, I may remove the middle bit, but may not. But as you say, it is most probably easier to replace it all in one go....well all that you have to anyway.
For Hull, I would draw a line (or lie tape) around holes giving approx20-40mm extra room and then use a stanley to cut into top layer of veneer and use chisel to remove leaving a hole in outer veneer with square sides and slight scarf cut in. The shape of the hole is up to you. You can either do one big square bit that covers all the holes, or various smaller shapes, using the lie of the veneers to guide your lines. (does your boat have longitudional outer veneer or 45deg veneer inside and out?) Personally I would go for smaller patches working with the lie of the veneer. Hope this makes sense....could do a drawing I guess if it does not.
Don't worry too much about the inside veneer, you can fill this out with any old bits of veneer/ply and guck. As long as you get it right on the outer veneers on inside and and outside of hull you will be fine.
I think many things would work, you just want to avoid too many point loadings. one tyre at front and two either side of hull towards transom would do it. Or turn boat over and use three milk crates, one at bow and one at each corner of transom.
I often just lay boat on an old mattress on the floor, which lets me move it around quite easily.
I think that some form of wood brace across boat to replace thwart would be a good idea though.
How much to cut out:
For my way of thinking, I would remove all rotten wood....but leave the good wood. so you have various holes around the place and missing bits of hog etc.
For Hog etc, I would then cut scarfs into all the hard-wood bits and replace just those. If you have two holes a couple of inches apart, I may remove the middle bit, but may not. But as you say, it is most probably easier to replace it all in one go....well all that you have to anyway.
For Hull, I would draw a line (or lie tape) around holes giving approx20-40mm extra room and then use a stanley to cut into top layer of veneer and use chisel to remove leaving a hole in outer veneer with square sides and slight scarf cut in. The shape of the hole is up to you. You can either do one big square bit that covers all the holes, or various smaller shapes, using the lie of the veneers to guide your lines. (does your boat have longitudional outer veneer or 45deg veneer inside and out?) Personally I would go for smaller patches working with the lie of the veneer. Hope this makes sense....could do a drawing I guess if it does not.
Don't worry too much about the inside veneer, you can fill this out with any old bits of veneer/ply and guck. As long as you get it right on the outer veneers on inside and and outside of hull you will be fine.
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Thanks Ed
I have updated my site again with new pictures of how I have supported her and also where I have started chiselling away rotten wood.
The Hog seems to be rotting from under the Hull and so far, each part I have chiselled has literally broke away from the Hull. It does look like the Hog is made up of 2 pieces, one on the outside and one in the middle. Is this correct? I’ve watched the Hull making video but can’t seem to work it out.
From what I can see the majority of the Hog needs to come out - my problem is if the Hog is in 2 pieces I would need to fix the veneers first and then the Hog is this correct?
Please let me know your thoughts and thanks as always for all your help.
PS If I can help you out in anyway with work on your website for example just let me know. It’s a bit of a one-way street at the moment and you poor folks aren’t getting anything from me
I have updated my site again with new pictures of how I have supported her and also where I have started chiselling away rotten wood.
The Hog seems to be rotting from under the Hull and so far, each part I have chiselled has literally broke away from the Hull. It does look like the Hog is made up of 2 pieces, one on the outside and one in the middle. Is this correct? I’ve watched the Hull making video but can’t seem to work it out.
From what I can see the majority of the Hog needs to come out - my problem is if the Hog is in 2 pieces I would need to fix the veneers first and then the Hog is this correct?
Please let me know your thoughts and thanks as always for all your help.
PS If I can help you out in anyway with work on your website for example just let me know. It’s a bit of a one-way street at the moment and you poor folks aren’t getting anything from me