Firefly MKII Centreboard Case

[Ed]

For the veneers....you really have to either go there or try and speak to someone who know what they are talking about.

They sell 'pretty' veneers and 'construction' veneers.

You of course want the construction veneer.

They do various thicknesses and I reckon you want something around 1.5 - 2mm. The inner veneer is normally thicker than the outer ones (especially the exterior outer one, which can be quite thin, especially if the boat has been sanded a couple of times. All their thickness tend to be pretty nominal and last time I bought Agba it was a touch on the thin side, but it was all they had so I went with it. I would ask for 2mm

As for what veneer.....you will really have to talk to them.

They normally stock Kyaha, which is much darker and redder than Agba with a slightly more tangled grain. Sometimes, they have Agba. When I last went (3-4 years so no help really) the Agba was left from an old order and hiding under the Kyaha on the racks. Since then, I know that they have had more.....but whether this means there is now a stack of agba leaves.....or whether it is mixed in with the Kyaha as before ....or its all agba....I just don't know.

As I said before.....there is (or was) one bloke there who did know what was what.

They like to say that they understand boats and are supplying the boat-builder....so ....I think you just have to ring up and say:

"I am re-building old Fairey Firefly......made from agba. It is golden-brown in colour.....I need some veneer....around 2mm....what do you have in stock?"

For the keel and hog, you have to ask and see what Mahoganies they have in stock. Sometimes they have a good choice and sometimes not. They normally have a 'high quality' brazillian type mahagony (don't think it is actually from Brazil/honduras) but it is very nice visually and to work with. Then they have a nice mahogany, Kayha, Utile or Sapele. My preference is Kayha, which looks really nice, it is just that it can be a sod to work with as grain is VERY wild. Utile and Sapele can both be fine, but can be a bit heavy and won't fit into Fairy boat as well as Kayha.
Finally they have a cheap Mahogany such as Meranti. It can be tempting to use this, as I have before, reckoning that I will bring it back with a little stain, but I have always regretted using it. It looks like you bought it in B&Q and never jells in with rest of boat.

Again, if you can find the right guy, tell them it is to patch into mahogany from a 1950s Fairey boat and they should be able to help.

For the center-board case - use Robbins Elite Ply. It is a gaboon faced ply which although not too high quality is a good colour match for Fairey and nice and light. It is guaranteed for 15 years....but both Chris B and I have definitely had problems with surface cracks well within this time. I am not mad about it.....but that is what I would use. I think it will be quite fine on a centre-board case.

Buying wood by distance is not easy. But Robbins send wood all over the UK....so they must be able to communicate about this.

Finally, do make sure that they understand that if you don't like the bit they have given you, it will be returned.

Are you going to just get the rough boards delivered? or are you asking them to cut'n'plane them for you?

[Rupert]

If getting them to machine the wood, leave plenty of time for your order...

[gozzy]

Hi people

I have just called Robbins and asked for someone to call me back who was familiar with the firefly.

A girl called back and said "We dont know what wood we sell for different boats we just sell marine ply" which was nice

Im going to measure the parts on my centreboard case and hog tonight and place an order tomorrow. Im just goin to order just rough boards.

Can anyone advise the best epoxy etc to use for attaching the veneers?

Thanks

[Garry R]

I have used West System with the fast hardener (it is Scotland and it's not very warm). I have added a little bit of microfibre to the glue as well - if you let me have your address if you need some and I can post it as I bought a huge tub when I did up Gannet and don't need a lot more. I bought a staple gun - upholsterer's as well from B & Q and am using 8mm staples stapled through cardboard (helps you get the staples out more easily and doesn't leave marks). You can push the veneer down at the edges with the gun until the glue oozes out then fire in the staple. Take care to get all the staple out after - they can break but generally there is a bit left sticking out and you can get a good straight pull on them to get them out. I am also using a snap off type of craft knife to keep a really sharp cutting edge for shaping the veneers to fit. Cut accurately and build it up slowly. I have also edged each side of the joint with the plastic brown parcel tape to stop the epoxy smearing all over the wood - saves removal afterwards. Once the thing is glued and stapled I peel it off - easier tan when the epoxy has hardened. My two pennyworth.

[Ed]

mmmmmm as I said....you have to get through to the right person.

I would ring up and ask for someone who knows about the veneers or looks after the veneer department.

The veneers are sold from the loft above the shop and you normally get one of the shop-guys.....but only one of them (and I suspect one of the office guys) really has any idea about what they have and what it is for.

The guy who I used to talk to has a very 'plummy' and middle-class accent, and a redish beard, although how that will help on the phone I don't know.

You might not think so but it is better now that it used to be.....the shop used to be run by the then-owner who was the most cantankerous and rude old boy you had ever seen. He had a great big red nose and used to sit behind the counter huffing and puffing. I once got together a selection of brass screws....4 of this and 6 of the other and he got really cross with me saying 'oh for god's sake I can' t be bothered with that.....buy a box or forget it'.....

I would ring again and get onto the shop phone and then ask about the veneers.

cheers

eib

[gozzy]

Hi again

I was planning on ordering the following:

For the Hull
Agba veneer x 2.0mm sq mtr x 1 (Golden Colour Veneer)

For the centreboard case
Hardwood MAHOGANY 25mm x 25mm per metre length - 5 peices (for bottom edges of casing)
Hardwood MAHOGANY 12mm x 100mm 1 mtr lgths x 2 (For Hog)
ROBBINS ELITE BS1088 5mm 2500 x 1220 5 ply - 2 peices 2500 x 700 (for casing)

Here are some dumb questions
Are the hog and keel the same depth and width?
Also does the wood bend, i.e. the hog, if i cut out a flat peice, will that bend to fit the hull? The same for the strips on the bottom edge of the centreboard case?

The price for this little lot will help me decide whether to use epoxy or pritt stick for the veneers

[Ed]

Buying wood ain't easy....and I would always recommending visiting if at all possible. It is just so much easier to see what you are buying. Wood varies so much.

I have been offered by timber yards wood that I would throw on the fire and pulled out wonderful bits of wood from piles of fire-wood.

Nothing beets choosing by hand. To be honest, I normally even pull out a few sheets of ply before I decide to commit to one.

Robbins is great and of course I am biased as I lived close for a long while. but are you sure there is nowhere closer that you could visit?

You could try asking on http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/ they are very friendly and may well be able to point you in the right direction for somewhere closer, or even someone close who can do the machining.

A couple of thoughts:

veneer comes in leaves, normally about a ft wide by 4-6ft long. Sometimes they are good to the ends and edges.....but sometimes not, with shakes, knots and dryness in some part or another. Agba seems particularly prone to this. Often buying veneer is very much a case of going though a pile and picking the best ones and then negotiating an amount off for the damaged bits.

Robbins (in the old days) used to only sell by the whole leaf. I have kinda got used to that and have only tried to buy by the leaf for a few years now. They 'may' now sell cut parts of a leaf, but I reckon you will pay a premium for this as I just can't see how they are going to store parts of leaves within a pile. The other thing is that a full size leaf will 'just' roll, although you end up with a round 'wheel' of a parcel which could be quite big. I seem to remember that 2mm agba rolls to about 20-30 ins but some others such as ash roll much smaller.

Come to think of it, delivery won't be a problem if you are getting some ply delivered as they will just put it between the sheets.

I am trying to remember exactly how big your hole is.....but I rather suspect you may well need slightly more that one square metre.

The mahogany looks fine....although if you can find someone else to machine it....it does save money and you can put a little thought into how the wood looks and fits into each bit. Also if there are any compromises over where knots or marks go, you make the decisions.

Do just make sure you are getting either their best mahogany or at least Kayha. Don't be tempted by the Meranti.

It should bend easy enough although you may need to persaude it with weights. if it doesn't then it may need to be soaked or steamed, but I wouldn't expect to have to do this.

Afraid I can't remember about size/depth/width of hog and keel. I think you are going a bit deeper in than I have ever had to.....but I may have too soon!!

hope this helps

cheers

eib

[Garry R]

Hog I have no idea but the max/min keel widths and thicknesses are on the Firefly class rules site in a table at the end of the PDF file. I bought 75mm x 18mm mahogany for the new keel from Robbins along with my Elite ply and will cut it/plane it myself. Sadly you can't link to a pdf so you'll have to find it through Google using "National Firefly Class Rules" keywords and it's the first hit!!

[Garry R]

One thing that I hve been contemplating now that I have the keel off Vivette is to drill a series of small holes through the agba veneers where it overlaps the hog (and down into the hog) and inject warm epoxy in to flow into any gaps which might lurk there. The holes won't be seen when the keel goes back on . I have heard this technique being used for sorting out leaks around centreboard cases and just wondered......... It might stabilise the end of the veneers too - any thoughts?

[Ed]

Garry,

yeah done it.....and think it helps, but it is one of those things where unless you pull the hull apart it is very hard to tell how much use it actually was.

The only thing I would say is that it is a very VERY messy job to do.

You need to make very sure you don't drill too deep and come out the other side. Its easier if hole is a bit bigger, but then harder to hide if visible.

I have done it over small area on Jollyboat with epoxy and larger holes but it was painted over. On Int14 I did a large area with small holes and used cyanacrylate and Blakes woodseal for glue. then filling holes with a guk made from agba sanding flour and woodseal, which seemed to work ok.

I havn't had to do it with my Firefly, either because the hull is stronger? or because there isn't so much unsupported area of hull. It is a bit of problem with Jollyboats cos the glue sticking veneers together seems to give up after 35 years or so.

But in general.....yes .....good idea.

One other think I meant to mention with the veneering job in mind...

It is worthwhile popping in to a modeling shop and buying some sheets of thin modelling ply. 1/64 & 1/32 ply can be very useful to pack up under the veneers if it looks like you are going to be too shallow in depth. You can cut/sand veneer of course, but the ply is much easier to work with and does not crack under pressure.

To be honest having a sheet of thin ply is always very useful for packing and making shims and patterns.

cheers

eib

[Garry R]

Just wondered if anyone has seen this interesting little clip on Firefly building.

http://www.freewebs.com/faireyaviation/marine.htm

Scroll down the page and click on the Firefly bit which is tucked away to download the clip.

It also takes me back to the days when at the cinema the film programme went round and round. Trailers, adverts (Pearl and Dean), Pathe news in the frightfully BBC accent (which I believe is called received pronounciation) the B movie and then the main feature. I was hauled out of the cinema once by my mother who wondered where I was but I was sitting through some programme for the third time!! Ah - they don't make them like that nowadays.

[Garry R]

Oh and look at all that agba veneer. You need to click on "View this story" just below where it says Firefly Dinghy on the link in the previous post.

[jonathan]

Gary, if you want to live the experience of going round incircles try ring our water supply company. Round and round and no one with any ideas or authority to do anything. But hey, the shareholders are doing OK so whats the problem.

[gozzy]

Hello all

I still havn't ordered and ply as yet, mainly due to the cost of the mahogany.

For my centre board case I reckon I need 1 full Robbins Elite Super Mahogany 2500mmx1220mm sheet @ £74.10
On top of all the other bits and epoxy it all gets quite expensive.
Would it be ok to use standard ply at £39 a sheet?
Also does anyone have a rough idea how much epoxy is needed to completely varnish my boat?

Your pics look good Garry and your doin a great job, just hope mine ends up going as well

Ive updated my pics with the centreboard completely taken apart http://www.axmi49.dsl.pipex.com/

As aways any advice or tips greatly appreciated

[Ed]

I wouldn't recommend the super elite ply.

It is gorgeous.....but it will look very out of place on a firefly as it is uses a very red kyaha for the veneers. It is also damn heavy.

the Elite will be just fine. This is made from Gaboon. It is not so strong, but much lighter and exactly the right colour....well it is if you give it a quick dose of a week yellowish stain. I have mentioned that both Chris and I have had a few problems with the outer veneer cracking with the ply.....but this tends to happen on decks especially under the bum or where wood is under some strain.

For all of that 'elite' is the best choice.....and only costs around £30 a sheet.


As for coating the firefly in Epoxy. A guess off top of head is 2-3Kg....but again can I save you some money? I know this is likely to cause some run of discusion and it has been discussed ad nauseum in the past.....but....

I would strongly recommend that you don't bother to coat it Epoxy. Either go traditional and use proper varnish.....or go with recent experiments by forum and try G4.

For my money. I would do outer hull with either G4+trad varnish or strong 2-pack poly varnish and top/inside with trad single-pack varnish. You may wish to again use G4 + trad.

There....saved you lots of money....no excuse now to not order now

And these products will be much better anyway.

cheers

eib