Would it work?

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Nessa
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Would it work?

Post by Nessa » Wed Jan 07, 2009 2:36 pm

One of my big fears with the phantom (apart from the whole thing falling apart while I am sailing it) is the capsize because I know, although I have yet to capsize the thing, that it will completely fill with water which I will only get out by bailing with a hand bailer (a cut down milk bottle in disguise.) At the moment the boat has largish transom flaps and no self bailers. The transom flaps are not efficient enough to drain the boat because once full it won't move quickly enough for them to work.

My question then, is, could I remove most of the ply from around the transom flaps, reinforce the transom bar and put a new knee into the cockpit where the rudder fittings are (needs doing anyway really,) thereby sort of creating one of the more modern self draining hulls?

So from this:

Image
to this:

Image



More importantly, could I do this myself, or is it a task for a pro, and if so, how much would it cost?
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Re: Would it work?

Post by Rupert » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:37 pm

In the absence of a false floor, wouldn't you flood the boat as soon as you slowed down or moved aft?
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Nessa
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Re: Would it work?

Post by Nessa » Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:56 pm

that is what worries me....so I suppose if I were really keen I would fit a false floor - or would it be better to fit self bailers?
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Re: Would it work?

Post by Rupert » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:28 pm

Bailers. False floors have to be pretty strong, as the water isn't acting upwards against your feet, and so weigh a lot.
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roger
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Re: Would it work?

Post by roger » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:33 pm

Nessa, my first hornet had only one small bailer and although I would now fit at least one more it is surprisingly quick to empty. Although the transom was partly open it did not drain at all.
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Re: Would it work?

Post by Ed » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:03 pm

Agreed with all that.

I don't think making the transom flaps any bigger is going to help, unless you build in the false floor. in fact quite the contrary, as it is just more area to leak.

The Phantom association used to have a set of plans for putting in a false floor and it wasn't too hard. I looked into it for Rob's Phantom. I tried to find them recently but think that I have lost them (or chucked them??).

Anyway it is not too hard. You should be able to do it yourself.

But with an old and heavy boat, I think you will just make it too heavy.

Phantoms (even without the false floor) don't come up with too much water, the problem in a capsize tends to be more that you invert or get blown downwind because there is so much buoyancy.

If there isn't a bailer fitted, I would try that first, I am sure it will make a big difference.

But of course the best advice is wait till it gets a bit warmer and then go and try it out a bit.

cheers

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Re: Would it work?

Post by JimC » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:35 am

What, no self bailers?... you must have self bailers, apart from anything else the trim will be wrong to get spray out of the flaps upwind.

A false floor is weight weight weight... In many ways smaller transom flaps are nicer than larger ones. A little stern tank, which is really what you are talking about won't help much, just provide a place for water to settle. If I had weight to burn I might be tempted to put in a low tabk say to the back of the db case where I didn't jump around: it can be much lighter and makes a good bit of difference, but it still has to be strong enough for rigging so you can't just use 3mm ply unsupported...

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Re: Would it work?

Post by Nessa » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:05 am

Looks like it's at least one self bailer then. I do suspect there was one in the boat - a strange rectangular recess in the hull, but why would anyone want to fill it back up?

Is there an optimum position for said bailer?
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Re: Would it work?

Post by Ed » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:04 pm

I think people remove them because they leak.....they are annoying and if you sail on a lake in lowish winds, tend to let more water in than out. And of course good ones are damn expensive.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a device that told you how much water came in....and out of your bailers! even a little sign that showed when water was coming in....rather than going out would be useful.

Where?

lowest point of hull about 30-40mm in from edge of hogg.

Where the lowest point is....of course depends on your speed, but in my experience, you need them most when the boat is 'just' going fast enough to use them, for which the lowest position will be pretty much where it is visually.

Try also to have them (or it) somewhere where you don't trip over them....but that you can easily reach.

Look where others have them. It amazes me how often I sail a boat and wonder....."Why did they put the bailers there".

Or more likely ......"Oh....F*&c%, OUCH! why did they put the b*%%d& bailers there!!!"

cheers

eib
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Re: Would it work?

Post by Rupert » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:31 pm

From a pain point of view, under the traveller/thwart can be a good place, as you are unlikely to tread on it. However, the Phantom has a strange hull shape with the deep bow and very flat run, so well worth copying one you know works!
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Re: Would it work?

Post by PeterV » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:42 pm

Isn't everyone missing the obvious here? My experience of transom flaps is that they leak water in when you're fitting the rudder and they're very inefficient at getting it out unless you've got a double bottom (I mean the boat). I've always found that a minute spent with a big bucket gets me back into the race a great deal quicker than spending my time trying to sail the water out. Carry a big bucket and get the water down to 6", then open the bailers and carry on racing.
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Re: Would it work?

Post by Ed » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:55 pm

Totally agree.

There is also a ton of skill in learning how to sail a boat empty anyway and in some conditions it just isn't possible.

I think on the whole I am with PeterV, unless you are very good at it...and there is plenty of wind and space (the sea), it is nearly always quicker to just bail.

But I don't reckon a Phantom comes up with that much water in it anyway??

As we said, one or two well-sited bailers should do the trick.

or of course you could put a nice big sponge in that bucket. :lol:

cheers

eib
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Re: Would it work?

Post by Nigel » Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:57 pm

Hi all,

Siting of bailers is something that is worth thinking seriously about. it is worth working out which areas of floor are least likely to be knelt or stood on. They hurt and they break. I personally would compromise on the ideal drainage position to get them out of the way

If they have to be somewhere inconvenient, it is also worth considering fabricating some bailer guards out of stainless sheet. I have some on the superchutes on my megabyte and they do save inadvertantly stepping on them and breaking them (the bailers are of course in the most awkward places as standard). I can photo these if anyone wants a pattern.

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Re: Would it work?

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Jan 08, 2009 2:03 pm

Perhaps Picture No 2 gives a clue:- It's a cold day and the helm (in a shorty wetsuit) doesn't want to get wet. :(

If you stay on the side of the boat, there will be alot more inside when you come upright even though you will step back into the cockpit with your hair-do intact.
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Re: Would it work?

Post by Rupert » Thu Jan 08, 2009 3:41 pm

Michael Brigg wrote:Perhaps Picture No 2 gives a clue:- It's a cold day and the helm (in a shorty wetsuit) doesn't want to get wet. :(

If you stay on the side of the boat, there will be alot more inside when you come upright even though you will step back into the cockpit with your hair-do intact.
I'd rather the water was in the boat than in me...
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