Clear penetrating epoxy sealer (CPES) see
http://www.rotdoctor.com/boat/02sealer.html
Says it stays flexible and penetrates deep.
Anyone tried it? or know a UK supplier
(Sorry, I started this topic on the For Sale section)
Clear penetrating epoxy sealer
salut a la france
have used epoxies in restoration of my seadog - used both international product and also that of uk epoxy resins (web site http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk all too excellent results - used a little acetone to thin the mix in both cases although international produce a custom thinner - expensive - iwas lucky in that a local diy/chandlers here in finisteren had the thinner on sale @2€- but that was clearance price
For economy suggest you look at epoxy uk ref above cheaper than most, next day service and resin cures under a wide range of temps and air conditions
Hope this is useful
tony stott
have used epoxies in restoration of my seadog - used both international product and also that of uk epoxy resins (web site http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk all too excellent results - used a little acetone to thin the mix in both cases although international produce a custom thinner - expensive - iwas lucky in that a local diy/chandlers here in finisteren had the thinner on sale @2€- but that was clearance price
For economy suggest you look at epoxy uk ref above cheaper than most, next day service and resin cures under a wide range of temps and air conditions
Hope this is useful
tony stott
Mirror, GP14(x2), Seadog, Blandford Nymph, and Pegasus awaiting complete rebuild!
OK have a little more time now:
CPES does as alan says look alot like SP300 or for that matter GitRot. I have used both and had some sucesses with both.
I havn't used it and would love to hear about anybodys experiences....I am not aware of any importer and I suspect it would be quite hard to import due to restrictions with chemicals and the like.
A few other thoughts:
SP300 is very good at what it claims to be....a sealer....but I have not found it to be very good at actually stablising a boat....I once coated my Jollyboat and some delamminated veneers became perfectly well sealed, but after very little time the veneers de-laminated in just the same way as they were before. It was very interesting the wood was still sealed....but just not sticking together to the next bit. The other problem that I have had (and others, I know) is that it can be very hard to make a good joint to next coat of epoxy or paint. You either need to overcoat when SP300 has not fully cured, or really leave it for a long time and then sand and wash with detergent. There is alot of amine given off in mix which settles on surface and makes it impossible to get a good next coat.
Some people have suggested just thinning epoxy and using that....even with acetone! This is really bad idea...me thinks. If you use a thinner....it MUST be the proper makers thinner...and it sure ain't acetone! But in general this is a bad idea.......you get real problems because the outer surface sets or dries (if you have enought solvent) before the inner surface thereby trapping solvent inside resin and wood. This severly weakens glue and can make it hard for the coating to ever really set properly...or it becomes brittle.
So yes you can do it.....but only with the proper thinner....and only strictly to the makers recommendations....I have learnt this the hard way before now. I generally use Sicomen Resin and they provide a few additives including a thinner for this very purpose. I have not used it...but would do so if I was going down that route. Incidently Sicomen are highly recommended and importers are dinghy peope and based in Bristol. They supply to many dinghy builders across the country.
If you are going to use epoxy for this purpose (here I really feel like I am teaching eggs to such grandma), I would use a minimum amount of thinner and lots of heat (with slow hardener). You will be amazed by just how thin epoxy gets when it is nice and warm
(normally just before it goes up in smoke - so all normal exotherm prevention is needed).
But I am with Chris, this product does sound very interesting and I would like to hear how it works....if anyone has used it.
for my money.....I would be interested in using one of the one-pack type wood hardeners, especially the moisture cured ones. The G4 mentioned before really sounds very interesting, even if called PondSeal and I would like to play with it sometime in the future.
I have also used the 'Wood Hardeners' sold by Cuprinol and mmmm...someone else. These are for treating wood with wet-rot and I was originally put onto them by Rupert. I have had so many sucsesses with these that I have been very liberally using it on the re-build of an old Tideway that is just fundamentally soft. The wood is all there.....just much of it is very soft. In fact using it so much that I rather had a disaster a while ago. I used it far too liberally....and then left out in sun and I don't know if anybody has ever done this with Blakes WoodSeal, but exactly the same happened, it all bubbled up and became a horrible mess that I still have not completely sanded back yet!
But used with care, I have found it to be very useful indeed. Of course Blakes WoodSeal is also very good at stablising wood.
Chris, I am interested in how you get on with old mahogany planks though....I would presume if they are that soft, then they also don't fit very well....and if you seal them....will they ever swell back into shape....if you see what I mean?
Really interested to hear of anybody else who has had sucsesses or failures with this kind of work on soft wood. these days I tend to wipp it out at the first excuse, but I have to admit that sometimes I do wonder if there is a more pragmatic approach.
cheers
eib
CPES does as alan says look alot like SP300 or for that matter GitRot. I have used both and had some sucesses with both.
I havn't used it and would love to hear about anybodys experiences....I am not aware of any importer and I suspect it would be quite hard to import due to restrictions with chemicals and the like.
A few other thoughts:
SP300 is very good at what it claims to be....a sealer....but I have not found it to be very good at actually stablising a boat....I once coated my Jollyboat and some delamminated veneers became perfectly well sealed, but after very little time the veneers de-laminated in just the same way as they were before. It was very interesting the wood was still sealed....but just not sticking together to the next bit. The other problem that I have had (and others, I know) is that it can be very hard to make a good joint to next coat of epoxy or paint. You either need to overcoat when SP300 has not fully cured, or really leave it for a long time and then sand and wash with detergent. There is alot of amine given off in mix which settles on surface and makes it impossible to get a good next coat.
Some people have suggested just thinning epoxy and using that....even with acetone! This is really bad idea...me thinks. If you use a thinner....it MUST be the proper makers thinner...and it sure ain't acetone! But in general this is a bad idea.......you get real problems because the outer surface sets or dries (if you have enought solvent) before the inner surface thereby trapping solvent inside resin and wood. This severly weakens glue and can make it hard for the coating to ever really set properly...or it becomes brittle.
So yes you can do it.....but only with the proper thinner....and only strictly to the makers recommendations....I have learnt this the hard way before now. I generally use Sicomen Resin and they provide a few additives including a thinner for this very purpose. I have not used it...but would do so if I was going down that route. Incidently Sicomen are highly recommended and importers are dinghy peope and based in Bristol. They supply to many dinghy builders across the country.
If you are going to use epoxy for this purpose (here I really feel like I am teaching eggs to such grandma), I would use a minimum amount of thinner and lots of heat (with slow hardener). You will be amazed by just how thin epoxy gets when it is nice and warm
(normally just before it goes up in smoke - so all normal exotherm prevention is needed).But I am with Chris, this product does sound very interesting and I would like to hear how it works....if anyone has used it.
for my money.....I would be interested in using one of the one-pack type wood hardeners, especially the moisture cured ones. The G4 mentioned before really sounds very interesting, even if called PondSeal and I would like to play with it sometime in the future.
I have also used the 'Wood Hardeners' sold by Cuprinol and mmmm...someone else. These are for treating wood with wet-rot and I was originally put onto them by Rupert. I have had so many sucsesses with these that I have been very liberally using it on the re-build of an old Tideway that is just fundamentally soft. The wood is all there.....just much of it is very soft. In fact using it so much that I rather had a disaster a while ago. I used it far too liberally....and then left out in sun and I don't know if anybody has ever done this with Blakes WoodSeal, but exactly the same happened, it all bubbled up and became a horrible mess that I still have not completely sanded back yet!
But used with care, I have found it to be very useful indeed. Of course Blakes WoodSeal is also very good at stablising wood.
Chris, I am interested in how you get on with old mahogany planks though....I would presume if they are that soft, then they also don't fit very well....and if you seal them....will they ever swell back into shape....if you see what I mean?
Really interested to hear of anybody else who has had sucsesses or failures with this kind of work on soft wood. these days I tend to wipp it out at the first excuse, but I have to admit that sometimes I do wonder if there is a more pragmatic approach.
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
-
Brian E. Evans
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:31 am
- Location: USA
- Contact:
The CPES you are describing is manufactured by Steve Smith in Richmond California smi3th@smithandcompany.org.I do not know if there is a distributor in England, the web site above is for a jobber. I have used this product both for restoring rotted wood and as part of a two step system for (Varnishing) wood. It uses an inhibiting thinner that stops the epoxy resin from cross linking until all the solvents are out and it actually takes about ten days to two weeks to get a full cure. This product is also used as a base sealer for Smith's five year varnish programme. About six or eight coats of this epoxy are painted onto wood until the wood will not absorb any more epoxy, some sanding is done but not much. Then while the epoxy is hard but not fully cured, several coats of polyurethane clear are painted over the base coat. The epoxy the finishes curing under the cured polyurethane.The result is a clear finish that looks like you put 30 coats of varnish on it. It will last about 5 years or more if it is looked after. However if the finish is damaged and water is allowed to get into the wood the results can be disasterous, with the stuff peeling off in sheets and taking the surface grain of the wood with it.
The stuff is not cheap either.
Brian Evans.
The stuff is not cheap either.
Brian Evans.
Ed
when you relaminated did you use straight epoxy or with fibrous additive - a small amount makes quite a difference to the strength/ reduction in brittleness of joint.
Acetone use - maybe not a recfommended thinner but with sparing use works extremely well - it has a low vapourisation point so easily evolves before cure of epoxy(if you work at temps below 55/60degree f. alsoif you raise temp to speed cure you will accelerate the evolution with the side effect of bubbling - leave cure for about an hour after glueing then apply warmth
tried all above they work both in the workshop and on the real thing
my background came up with the science etc
tony stott
when you relaminated did you use straight epoxy or with fibrous additive - a small amount makes quite a difference to the strength/ reduction in brittleness of joint.
Acetone use - maybe not a recfommended thinner but with sparing use works extremely well - it has a low vapourisation point so easily evolves before cure of epoxy(if you work at temps below 55/60degree f. alsoif you raise temp to speed cure you will accelerate the evolution with the side effect of bubbling - leave cure for about an hour after glueing then apply warmth
tried all above they work both in the workshop and on the real thing
my background came up with the science etc
tony stott
Mirror, GP14(x2), Seadog, Blandford Nymph, and Pegasus awaiting complete rebuild!
Well, I have relaminated hulls a few times now....
In this case I was working on my Fairey Jollyboat. I was using SP300 to try and solve a problem that often occurs with Fairey hot moulded agba hulls. The hulls show no signs of de-lamination, but when walking around bottom of hull you can hear lots of little cracking sounds. Nothing really to show for it until some time on a hot day you look at the hull and see that there are dark lines along the edge of each laminate veneer where there is still some dampness. Now close inspection and I mean CLOSE inspection with a glass shows that there is a hairline crack along the join of the outer veneer.
Now a new coat of a supple paint will cover it, but with worries about the lack of stiffness that the total breakdown of the aerolite used by Fairey to glue the veneers would cause....it is nice to try and stablise the hull as much as possible.
The problem is that once you take off the paint, it is impossible to even detect that there is a hairline crack there, except by presumption that it follows the lines of the joins between the veneers and of course you only really get it around the bottom of hull or other stress points.
The question is: Do you try and get something into the cracks....or lay a strong coating over the whole thing. On the whole I think it is most probably best to try both....anyway this was what I was using SP300 for as it is so thin that it would easily sink into the cracks.
Anyway as I said before my experience was mixed....but SP300 is fantastic stuff and would do what Chris wants of it really well.
I think for this use you really want something with a bit more 'glue' in it. Which is why I was interested in this product.
I agree that adding some filler to epoxy will certainly help strength, but I don't think it will work in this case as it is hard enough to try and get epoxy into cracks or any penetration into wood anyway. Also many/most Fairey hulls are varnished anyway.
What do I do these days?
If the cracks are bad and/or the hull is painted, I use a 'thin' epoxy, with some heat and am normally amazed by how sinks in. How do you apply the heat? - Simple put the boat down hull up, stick rags in c-board case, and chuck a fan heater inside blowing upwards into hull. Make sure there is plenty of space for hot air to move around. Wait until hull is warm to the touch from the outside. Put resins inside the boat to warm up. Use slow hardener and mix small amounts in shallow container.
But to be honest, if the damage is not too bad, I just use Blakes woodseal that sets hard as a rock and really does seem to glue the veneers back together again.
But again I am always interested in other ways of doing it.
Re: Acetone.....it is along time since I studied any chemistry......but have talked to epoxy suppliers and boatbuilders who have always suggested to me that it is a bad idea. But then I won't even use 'white spirit' with my varnish.....as the proper thinners always seems to work much much better to me. I will try using some very small amounts of acetone some time to see if it makes the resin more workable and report back. Bit nervous about using Acetone too much....a friends workshop burnt down in an acetone fire.
cheers
eib
In this case I was working on my Fairey Jollyboat. I was using SP300 to try and solve a problem that often occurs with Fairey hot moulded agba hulls. The hulls show no signs of de-lamination, but when walking around bottom of hull you can hear lots of little cracking sounds. Nothing really to show for it until some time on a hot day you look at the hull and see that there are dark lines along the edge of each laminate veneer where there is still some dampness. Now close inspection and I mean CLOSE inspection with a glass shows that there is a hairline crack along the join of the outer veneer.
Now a new coat of a supple paint will cover it, but with worries about the lack of stiffness that the total breakdown of the aerolite used by Fairey to glue the veneers would cause....it is nice to try and stablise the hull as much as possible.
The problem is that once you take off the paint, it is impossible to even detect that there is a hairline crack there, except by presumption that it follows the lines of the joins between the veneers and of course you only really get it around the bottom of hull or other stress points.
The question is: Do you try and get something into the cracks....or lay a strong coating over the whole thing. On the whole I think it is most probably best to try both....anyway this was what I was using SP300 for as it is so thin that it would easily sink into the cracks.
Anyway as I said before my experience was mixed....but SP300 is fantastic stuff and would do what Chris wants of it really well.
I think for this use you really want something with a bit more 'glue' in it. Which is why I was interested in this product.
I agree that adding some filler to epoxy will certainly help strength, but I don't think it will work in this case as it is hard enough to try and get epoxy into cracks or any penetration into wood anyway. Also many/most Fairey hulls are varnished anyway.
What do I do these days?
If the cracks are bad and/or the hull is painted, I use a 'thin' epoxy, with some heat and am normally amazed by how sinks in. How do you apply the heat? - Simple put the boat down hull up, stick rags in c-board case, and chuck a fan heater inside blowing upwards into hull. Make sure there is plenty of space for hot air to move around. Wait until hull is warm to the touch from the outside. Put resins inside the boat to warm up. Use slow hardener and mix small amounts in shallow container.
But to be honest, if the damage is not too bad, I just use Blakes woodseal that sets hard as a rock and really does seem to glue the veneers back together again.
But again I am always interested in other ways of doing it.
Re: Acetone.....it is along time since I studied any chemistry......but have talked to epoxy suppliers and boatbuilders who have always suggested to me that it is a bad idea. But then I won't even use 'white spirit' with my varnish.....as the proper thinners always seems to work much much better to me. I will try using some very small amounts of acetone some time to see if it makes the resin more workable and report back. Bit nervous about using Acetone too much....a friends workshop burnt down in an acetone fire.
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
-
Ian Malcolm
- Posts: 51
- Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:42 am
- Location: United Kingdom
Well it depends how bad the delamination is. The one area of my Albacore that had that trouble (on the turn of the bilge), the outer veneer was starting to split. I wound up drilling 1.5mm holes a couple of inches apart through the outer veneer and injecting epoxy into the delamination void untill it oozed out the split or the next hole. After fairing the holes with a little wood flour mixed in with the epoxy you can barely see them and a few coats of varnish later you would never notice them unless you were cleaning the whole bottom with a toothbrush!
I've got a tin of international No.7 thinners for epoxy paints and will probably try thinning a couple of brands of epoxy and see what happens. Until then, I'll continue to use very large quantities of superglue on deteriorated wood.
I've got a tin of international No.7 thinners for epoxy paints and will probably try thinning a couple of brands of epoxy and see what happens. Until then, I'll continue to use very large quantities of superglue on deteriorated wood.
Ian Malcolm. London, ENGLAND. (FORUM REPLY PREFERRED)
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.
ianm[at]the[dash]malcolms[dot]freeserve[dot]co[dot]uk
[at]=@, [dash]=- & [dot]=. *Warning* HTML & >32K emails --> NUL:
'Stingo' Albacore #1554 - 15' Early 60's, Uffa Fox designed,
All varnished hot moulded wooden racing dinghy.
Yup.....done that too....
skill is knowing how far to drill
I did find it very hard to do the injection.....how did you manage? I tried syringes but not with much luck. In the end I just applied to outer hull and allowed it to seep in, which it does if hull is nice and warm.....but not nearly as far as you are suggesting....more a kind of spot-weld.
the last time I did it I used WoodSeal......and so far none of the veneers have lifted at all. But I would stress this was for laminates with no visible sign of delamination.....just the 'click' 'click' noises when you push firly on the inside of hull
Glad you are finding superglue to work well.....so do I!
just make sure you really seal it with varnish as remember that it isn't really waterproof.
cheers
eib
cheers
eib
skill is knowing how far to drill
I did find it very hard to do the injection.....how did you manage? I tried syringes but not with much luck. In the end I just applied to outer hull and allowed it to seep in, which it does if hull is nice and warm.....but not nearly as far as you are suggesting....more a kind of spot-weld.
the last time I did it I used WoodSeal......and so far none of the veneers have lifted at all. But I would stress this was for laminates with no visible sign of delamination.....just the 'click' 'click' noises when you push firly on the inside of hull
Glad you are finding superglue to work well.....so do I!
just make sure you really seal it with varnish as remember that it isn't really waterproof.
cheers
eib
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
I've quickly put some photos of merlin 36 on
http://www.barlowharps.demon.co.uk/page6.html
if you want to see what my problems are!
Bearing in mind that this boat may only see water for a few hours a month in summertimeo I think the use of some epxy may be the only way without renewing so much. The good parts are realy quite good but thare are many patches of fresh air where there should be wood.
A new transome, and two planks and some ribs are already in the pipeline.
http://www.barlowharps.demon.co.uk/page6.html
if you want to see what my problems are!
Bearing in mind that this boat may only see water for a few hours a month in summertimeo I think the use of some epxy may be the only way without renewing so much. The good parts are realy quite good but thare are many patches of fresh air where there should be wood.
A new transome, and two planks and some ribs are already in the pipeline.
And No 111 is progressing with the hull almost sanded down and the large cracks either repaired or filled. She is looking really good and think that the effort will have been worthwhile. There is a Merlin Vintage event in Banbury in early September so am hoping that might be a venue for me. Having been away down south for the last week or so am back home and ready to progress with renewed vigour. My hands are free of glue, epoxy and various scuffs so ready to get them ruined again!!
-
katoosh525
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:06 am
Re: Clear penetrating epoxy sealer
CPES.
It is now being imported into the UK and is available from http://www.makewoodgood.com.
I have used this over the years for a number of uses.
The wooden pillars supporting my sons bedroom were rotten from some poorly neglected guttering by the previous owner. CPES has restored sufficient structural integrity, provided sufficient water proofing that the pillars are not rotting further and as far as I can see the rot has not progressed. This repair is now 8 years old.
I have also used it for preservation. My house has many solid timbers, and when any are replaced I apply CPES as a maintenance treatment. I do the same on new window frames before painting. This is very beneficial for reducing the maintenance as the paint or varnish lasts much longer if applied one day after the last coat of CPES.
As for the alternatives:
Heating epoxy will thin it, without adversely affecting its cured state, although it will set faster. I don't think it will penetrate as well as CPES, but a trial should be easy to arrange and I may be wrong as I have not tried this.
Thinning is often done with Xylene, however the epoxy may not cure properly, try some first to see, if it sets hard it is probably worth investigating penetration into wood.
For me, and given the cost of wood, and my time, CPES hasn't been that expensive, however I really do hate painting. The cost in the UK appears a little lower now than when sourced from Scandinavia.
It is now being imported into the UK and is available from http://www.makewoodgood.com.
I have used this over the years for a number of uses.
The wooden pillars supporting my sons bedroom were rotten from some poorly neglected guttering by the previous owner. CPES has restored sufficient structural integrity, provided sufficient water proofing that the pillars are not rotting further and as far as I can see the rot has not progressed. This repair is now 8 years old.
I have also used it for preservation. My house has many solid timbers, and when any are replaced I apply CPES as a maintenance treatment. I do the same on new window frames before painting. This is very beneficial for reducing the maintenance as the paint or varnish lasts much longer if applied one day after the last coat of CPES.
As for the alternatives:
Heating epoxy will thin it, without adversely affecting its cured state, although it will set faster. I don't think it will penetrate as well as CPES, but a trial should be easy to arrange and I may be wrong as I have not tried this.
Thinning is often done with Xylene, however the epoxy may not cure properly, try some first to see, if it sets hard it is probably worth investigating penetration into wood.
For me, and given the cost of wood, and my time, CPES hasn't been that expensive, however I really do hate painting. The cost in the UK appears a little lower now than when sourced from Scandinavia.
Re: Clear penetrating epoxy sealer
I used S1 sealer from system three on the jollyboat http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/S-1-Sealer-c32.htm. I sealed a piece of marine ply with 3 coats then cut it with a saw to gauge penetration. It doesn't penetrate very far, certainly not 0.25 mm (maybe 1/10th that?) on good firm wood. It cannot be offering structural support. I'll try and get a pic if anyone is interested. I also tried sealing with S1 and then glueing with west systems 105 and breaking apart. The wood breaks and the S1 doesn't peel off, similar to using epoxy alone. On the boat it seemed to take at least 3 coats to get any type of sheen, 5 or more to get an even appearance, suggesting it does penetrate. It does penetrate more than straight west systems 105 epoxy. If anyone is really interested I could cut the boat in half.... I tried it on some punky wood removed from my transom. It penetrates very deeply and if you add enough you get some sort of plasticized material? Probably very strong, certainly very expensive. People around here swear by it on cedar strip boats. It is expensive and mostly solvent. It is very easy to work with. It is very very flexible even after a year of curing. It's Ok tough, dropped tools etc don't scratch through it. It needs to cure for a few days if you want to sand it. It doesn't blush. I used it because of those cracks Ed describes between agba veneers. I really doubt any structural assistance but it does get sucked into those cracks, eventually filling them. As an aside manufacturer suggested to me that before varnishing that the boat be left at least two weeks for all solvent to evaporate. Also suggested not using solvent thinned epoxy and recommended http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/Clear-Coat-c14.htm. I am a big fan of epoxy sealed wood from building a ply kayak. In this case however I am not sure in hindsight I would have used it rather than thinned varnish. Not really sure the advantage?