new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
Just occasionally it's useful to have a response that's about the original question!
I had the same concerns about weight when I re-decked my Finn, so I used Robbins Elite as it's quite a bit lighter than their other grades. I used 6mm Super Elite for the centreboard case but for the decks I used 4mm Elite. It's nothing like as strong as Super Elite and much lighter in colour but the deck is well supported with deck beams and the side deckas are a light colour as well.
I would have thought that 4mm was quite thick enough for your decks but the darker woods do look prettier so I think you've got to have a look at them and decide whether you want pretty or light!
I had the same concerns about weight when I re-decked my Finn, so I used Robbins Elite as it's quite a bit lighter than their other grades. I used 6mm Super Elite for the centreboard case but for the decks I used 4mm Elite. It's nothing like as strong as Super Elite and much lighter in colour but the deck is well supported with deck beams and the side deckas are a light colour as well.
I would have thought that 4mm was quite thick enough for your decks but the darker woods do look prettier so I think you've got to have a look at them and decide whether you want pretty or light!
PeterV
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
Finn K197 & GBR564
Warsash
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
totally agree.
I think the super-elite is a much better wood than the elite.....but certainly much heavier and a lot more expensive!
I might also point out that both Chris and I have had problems with the outer veneer cracking on elite......after only a couple of years. This seems especially the case if the wood is under strain of any kind. So a heavier weight might be advisable.
But hey....these are racing boats. If there is no other limitation (rules etc.) then I would go for 4mm for foredecks and 5 under your bum. I would use Robbins Elite, because it is both very light....and because it weathers to look much closer to the ply used by Fairey originally, (especially if you give it a little yellow stain when new). I would then take care.....watch out for cracks....and presume that it will need re-doing again in 10 years or so.
If you used the super-elite it would last longer and look nicer, but not be so original in colour....heavier and you would have less money to spend on the varnish.
Only other thing to say is that I have found sheets of super-elite to be pretty consistent.....but elite pretty variable. Super-elite has a very def best side, but elite can have two good sides....or two bad sides, you really do have to go and select your sheets yourself.
Hope this helps
If you are buying your ply from somewhere else, do tell us what you find.
Most of us on this list are all using Robbins....and although there must be others selling marine quality Lloyds cert marine ply....I am not sure where they are.
cheers
eib
I think the super-elite is a much better wood than the elite.....but certainly much heavier and a lot more expensive!
I might also point out that both Chris and I have had problems with the outer veneer cracking on elite......after only a couple of years. This seems especially the case if the wood is under strain of any kind. So a heavier weight might be advisable.
But hey....these are racing boats. If there is no other limitation (rules etc.) then I would go for 4mm for foredecks and 5 under your bum. I would use Robbins Elite, because it is both very light....and because it weathers to look much closer to the ply used by Fairey originally, (especially if you give it a little yellow stain when new). I would then take care.....watch out for cracks....and presume that it will need re-doing again in 10 years or so.
If you used the super-elite it would last longer and look nicer, but not be so original in colour....heavier and you would have less money to spend on the varnish.
Only other thing to say is that I have found sheets of super-elite to be pretty consistent.....but elite pretty variable. Super-elite has a very def best side, but elite can have two good sides....or two bad sides, you really do have to go and select your sheets yourself.
Hope this helps
If you are buying your ply from somewhere else, do tell us what you find.
Most of us on this list are all using Robbins....and although there must be others selling marine quality Lloyds cert marine ply....I am not sure where they are.
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
I used Elite on Gannet and the Firefly and in both cases I haven't had a cracking problem thank goodness. I had the sheets delivered to Aberdeen - all beautifully packaged at a price but great service. The first lot I got I was own south sailing with Secret Water so used her as the trailer and put the cover on over the top and got it back to Aberdeen that way!!
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Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
This business of cracking ply has been around since the sixties and probably before, I got a solution when two identical boats decked with identical ply onr cracked the other did not.
The answer given by the plywood company was that veneer are rotary cut (and thus have a natural curve.) and tend to be laid the same way in a sheet thus there is a right and wrong way up to a sheet of ply especially if you are going to bend it it won't be noticable as bendiness but if you do bend a bit both ways across the outside grain and you will notice that the grain opens more on one side than the other, the long gone Reliable Plywood Company and maybe some manufacturers still in business made sure that the bend was on the outside both top & bottom Bon Hoare for instance used Relia Ply, Brunzeel did the same.
As aside did you know there is a right and wrong way to copier paper in a photocopier - printer? I only found out after yet another major jamb and fire, and the Xerox Man rather wearily pointed out an arrow on the paper packet indicating the way up for the paper! Wrong way it WILL jamb right way LESS likely but not 100%!
The answer given by the plywood company was that veneer are rotary cut (and thus have a natural curve.) and tend to be laid the same way in a sheet thus there is a right and wrong way up to a sheet of ply especially if you are going to bend it it won't be noticable as bendiness but if you do bend a bit both ways across the outside grain and you will notice that the grain opens more on one side than the other, the long gone Reliable Plywood Company and maybe some manufacturers still in business made sure that the bend was on the outside both top & bottom Bon Hoare for instance used Relia Ply, Brunzeel did the same.
As aside did you know there is a right and wrong way to copier paper in a photocopier - printer? I only found out after yet another major jamb and fire, and the Xerox Man rather wearily pointed out an arrow on the paper packet indicating the way up for the paper! Wrong way it WILL jamb right way LESS likely but not 100%!
Simples.
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Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
A.G. Wrote:-
Presumably when the ply is layed and glued, any cracks that do occur on the inner surface will allow better penetration of the resin and thereby improve rather than weaken the ply.
Can’t think what I'd want to do that for....
This of course makes completely good sense. Presumably a rotary cut means that the wood is cut a bit like unravelling a Swiss roll, and would greatly improve the yield of ply from any given piece of lumber as well as giving a more even colour to the sheet of ply produced. It is quite different to the situation in sheets of wood cut to produce a veneer of single thickness where several sheets might be produced from a single log, each with a nearly matching pattern of grain, a feature that is often evident on older wooden rowing or sculling boats made from single thickness veneers, in which the matching grain is used (certainly by some of the more individual boat builders) to produce an attractive or individual shell.veneer are rotary cut (and thus have a natural curve
Presumably when the ply is layed and glued, any cracks that do occur on the inner surface will allow better penetration of the resin and thereby improve rather than weaken the ply.
I have noticed the tendency of printer paper to jam seemingly dependent on its mood on the day but this would explain things. I imagine this is due to a small lip on the cut edge of the paper causing problems with the initial pick up, but then again it as manufactured on a roll so there is indeed a small curvature. My other theory for paper jams relates to the paper becoming brittle when it is hot or dry. Air-conditioning may affect this as will recycling sheets that have already been through the hot drum. Always a problem if attempting manual double sided printing.As aside did you know there is a right and wrong way to copier paper in a photocopier - printer?
Can’t think what I'd want to do that for....
Michael Brigg
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
I have been told that it the lip is due to the guillotining to cut it to size. If the pack is the wrong way up, the picked up sheet catches on the lip of the next sheet and drags it in as well.Michael Brigg wrote:I imagine this is due to a small lip on the cut edge of the paper
If you dont know which way up your paper is, just fan it. That should sort it out
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
AG,
totally understand about the rotary cut ply....and the resultant 'good' and 'bad' or 'inner' and 'outer' side of the ply.
The problem that I have had with Robbins Elite is that it is very hard to tell the difference between the 'inner' and 'outer' side.
As I said, with Super-Elite it is pretty obvious, but with Elite much harder. Normally one side should also be clear of knots/patches etc....which again it is with super-elite, but not always the case with elite In some cases, I have come to the conclusion that there are two 'bad' sides rather than two good. The last sheet I bought, I did not select because I wanted it cut before I picked up. When I picked it up, I was less than amused to find both sides had patches.
So.....I would still advise selecting your sheets if you can!
Incidentally, I have seen this on three boats and I am sure the builder in each case (Chris Barlow, Laurie Smart and myself) were all pretty savvy about the inner and outer side of a bit of ply. In all cases the damage happened well within the 15 year guarantee that is supposed to be offered.....but how on earth do you go about making a claim against that?
You mentioned Relia Ply and Brunzeel.....I have heard a great deal about the latter, but nothing about the former.
Do you know of current suppliers of either?
cheers
eib
totally understand about the rotary cut ply....and the resultant 'good' and 'bad' or 'inner' and 'outer' side of the ply.
The problem that I have had with Robbins Elite is that it is very hard to tell the difference between the 'inner' and 'outer' side.
As I said, with Super-Elite it is pretty obvious, but with Elite much harder. Normally one side should also be clear of knots/patches etc....which again it is with super-elite, but not always the case with elite In some cases, I have come to the conclusion that there are two 'bad' sides rather than two good. The last sheet I bought, I did not select because I wanted it cut before I picked up. When I picked it up, I was less than amused to find both sides had patches.
So.....I would still advise selecting your sheets if you can!
Incidentally, I have seen this on three boats and I am sure the builder in each case (Chris Barlow, Laurie Smart and myself) were all pretty savvy about the inner and outer side of a bit of ply. In all cases the damage happened well within the 15 year guarantee that is supposed to be offered.....but how on earth do you go about making a claim against that?
You mentioned Relia Ply and Brunzeel.....I have heard a great deal about the latter, but nothing about the former.
Do you know of current suppliers of either?
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
Thanks very much.PeterV wrote:Just occasionally it's useful to have a response that's about the original question!
I had the same concerns about weight when I re-decked my Finn, so I used Robbins Elite as it's quite a bit lighter than their other grades. I used 6mm Super Elite for the centreboard case but for the decks I used 4mm Elite. It's nothing like as strong as Super Elite and much lighter in colour but the deck is well supported with deck beams and the side deckas are a light colour as well.
I would have thought that 4mm was quite thick enough for your decks but the darker woods do look prettier so I think you've got to have a look at them and decide whether you want pretty or light!
My last redecking was a Firefly where I went OTT and used two skins of 3mm Brynzeel (just cos the local yard happened to have some).
This boat is going to have to be pretty as the hull is a fore and aft planked varnished Fairey...
F 3163 "Aquarius",
IC K229 nameless for the time being
I14 K377 "Mercury" - long term rebuild project
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
Hi Ed,
Reliaply went out of business a long time ago as far I recall and Brunzeel were a dutch company. Their ply never actually complied with BS1088 but many thought is was much better.
They were in independent company over here but I think then closed down and supplied through Silvermans. Whether that is still the case I don't know. They did have a quality control problem a few years back and struggled to get things sorted.
CHeers
D
Reliaply went out of business a long time ago as far I recall and Brunzeel were a dutch company. Their ply never actually complied with BS1088 but many thought is was much better.
They were in independent company over here but I think then closed down and supplied through Silvermans. Whether that is still the case I don't know. They did have a quality control problem a few years back and struggled to get things sorted.
CHeers
D
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
Reliaply was always regarded as the definitive source in the Cherub fleet. Naturally we had a particular interest in low weight and good strength in the thinner grades...
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
Anybody know a reliable source of Brunzeel then?
Or idea of availability....or cost....or choice of types?
I think I do remember that it was both made in netherlands....and not BS standard...
but does have a good reputation.
Just never found anyone who sold it.
But I guess that might of been because I was only living a couple of miles from Robbins!
cheers
eib
Or idea of availability....or cost....or choice of types?
I think I do remember that it was both made in netherlands....and not BS standard...
but does have a good reputation.
Just never found anyone who sold it.
But I guess that might of been because I was only living a couple of miles from Robbins!
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
http://www.hulley-marine.co.uk/html/bruynzeel.htmlEd wrote:Anybody know a reliable source of Brunzeel then?
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
Fanning paper causes static and can make the problems worse. Some paper has a Correct side, and some doesn't. Usually, if you stack it the way up that it comes out from the logical way the packet undoes, any jams will be down to something other than the paper.Nigel wrote:I have been told that it the lip is due to the guillotining to cut it to size. If the pack is the wrong way up, the picked up sheet catches on the lip of the next sheet and drags it in as well.Michael Brigg wrote:I imagine this is due to a small lip on the cut edge of the paper
If you dont know which way up your paper is, just fan it. That should sort it out
Rupert
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Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
A slight downside to Brunzeel is/was that it was quite heavy as they used quality timber throughout that is to mahogany rather than the cheaper imitations such as khaya, didn't matter with Merlin Rockets in the 60's as they could be quite hard to get up to weight.
I'd figured out the paper thingy the REAL trick is to get "the girl" to do it for you! Then its not your problem.
As to finding the right side of a ply panel if you flex it and brush some water over whilst not obvious it does become a lot easier to tell the good side!
I'd figured out the paper thingy the REAL trick is to get "the girl" to do it for you! Then its not your problem.
As to finding the right side of a ply panel if you flex it and brush some water over whilst not obvious it does become a lot easier to tell the good side!
Simples.
Re: new deck for an Albacore - a string of questions...
If you buy Robins Tiger elite it is pretty obvious which is the right side! Very pretty, but nothing like what Fairey's used, though.
A for the paper, I work for a printer (the only employee!) so can't get the girl to do it for me, as, in a sense, I am "the girl"! But not a very pretty one...
A for the paper, I work for a printer (the only employee!) so can't get the girl to do it for me, as, in a sense, I am "the girl"! But not a very pretty one...
Rupert