help! semi permanent bonding wanted

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bert
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help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by bert » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:05 pm

Hi

I need some advice as to how I can fit a 3 mm bit of ply to the deck ( on the dance floor area of a canoe ) that will give good fixing strength but can be easly removed to allow access to the plywood underneath so it can be repaired between events.

I have applied UCP to the plywood that is to be fitted but need a non permanent way of attaching the strengher with further damage IF POSS.

Thanks for your time & efforts.

Bert

Rupert
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by Rupert » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:28 pm

Evostik? And plenty of weight on it to hold it down while it sets. Or if a flat area, ducktape round the edges?
Rupert

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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by JimC » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:35 pm

The trouble is that anything temporary is going to make little difference to stiffness... Screwing down with brass screws is probably the only way I can think of that will make it vaguely detachable: I think any kind of glue is likley to stick hard enough that there's the risk of damage when it comes off.

What's the basic problem: why do you want detachable reinforcement? I'm trying to think why the surface underneath should need repairing between events.

bert
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by bert » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:31 am

Hi Jim c

The basic problem is that the plywood is "bubbling" IE the top layer is delamerating & also there is a small impact punture in the deck in the dance floor,So I was thinking of puting a strip of 3mm ply between the strips that are there already.

I may have to replace the floor anyway because the "bubbling" will always be there & therefore p me off.

So therefore not really between events more likely to be between seasons.

However if there is a way to repair the "bubbling" then some filler with some wood dust in the mix will proberly cover the damage easily because it`s not in the direct line of fire.

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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:08 am

bert wrote:The basic problem is that the plywood is "bubbling" IE the top layer is delamerating .
I had that too. There must have been some batches of really mediocre ply about at some stage. After some messing about I ended up ripping the complete top veneer off in the main dance floor area and taking it down to the next ply, then gluing a new layer of 3mm over the top.

It worked just fine until the day I jumped on the boat too enthusiastically at the jetty and put my foot through the deck a little forward of the reinforced area. On looking through the hole I discovered all the internal framing was rotting out. But that story has been told...

In your place I'd do the same again, but inspect the internal frames as well as I could first!

bert
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by bert » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:26 pm

Hi jim

Thanks for the advice & thoughts on the bubbling,As to the internal frames when I brought the boat I used an idea from CVDRA of using the digi camera & everything looked ok,however If I end up removing the floor over the winter then I will be able to see properly if further work is needed.
If I end up having to remove the floor & replacing it then I will be asking for advice on a regular basis because the last thing I made out of wood is massively overengineered & functional.
I think that woodwork classes may well be required.
Hopefully the forum will continue with it`s famous advice & p taking!.

bert

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Ancient Geek
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by Ancient Geek » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:04 pm

As with cages for wild beasts the word temporary is worrying when used about anything nautical.
Do it right, do it once!
Simples.

bert
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by bert » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:32 pm

Ancient Geek wrote:As with cages for wild beasts the word temporary is worrying when used about anything nautical.
Do it right, do it once!
I realise that the repair has to be temperory or I will not sail the boat for the next 6 months & I have every intension of being a wet laughing stock in whitefrairs on sunday.

Come along & offer some advice on now to cure the problem,it could be fun.

As for Do it right Do it once yeh you`r right but this boat is for sailing & the winter is for woodwork.

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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by Rupert » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:57 pm

Looking at the uPVC cladding stuck to the Tonic sidedecks with duck tape, I think I'm with Bert on this one! And anyway, I'm hoping to have a go while he is drying out!
Rupert

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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by jpa_wfsc » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:53 am

My IC has a sheet of 3mm ply permanently glued - I think with epoxy - to the pray deck (the bit you kneel on between sailing and de-capsizing) - Heaven knows what terrors lie underneath but I'm not going to take it off and find out. At least, the deck beams etc seem to be sound (as far as one can reach through the access ports).

This one will not be at WSC this weekend though - the paint job is on my back burner at the moment as I am studying full time till June..... ... ..
j./

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!!!! Not CVRDA !!!!
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by JimC » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:25 pm

bert wrote:I realise that the repair has to be temperory or I will not sail the boat for the next 6 months & I have every intension of being a wet laughing stock in whitefrairs on sunday.
It took me about a day and a half tops to put the extra layer "permanently" on my boat... Because it doesn't need to be full length there's worry about making a scarf joint: you just need a single sheet. Mark out on the deck where its going to go, clear off as much as you can of the top veneer with a chisel and belt sand it down as level as possible. You'll probably need to shape the ply round the seat rails. Get it all fitting snugly, then on with generous amounts of moderately thickened epoxy and get out the staple gun and staple it down. When cured remove staples, sand edges flush with gunwhales where they overhang, fill holes then varnish or paint. I doubt its significantly more work than a temporary job to be quite honest.

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Ed
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by Ed » Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:05 am

I don't think it would take long to do it properly either.

And also agree that any temp fixing is going to either just not work.....or will be a pain to remove to do job properly at a later date.

If ply is de-laminating, then it will be easy to pull top veneer off.

Then just put something on top.

You could use some ply if you don't mind the extra weight. Personally I would get some mahogany construction veneer and lay that down at same angle as old veneer, but if you wanted to get it done quickly, what about just laying some epoxied cloth down there. A couple of layers of 200g glass would be as strong as one layer of veneer. A layer of 200g carbon would be stronger. A layer of carbon/kevlar twill would look rather sexy if not out of character with boat. You could always use a course-weaved peal-ply and create your non-slip. Or if you want to be a bit clever, you could always lay some veneer over a thin layer of glass to help bed it in.

My only issue with this approach is how concave the dance-floor is and therefore how easy would it be to pull down the veneer or ply with staples without having a million little voids underneath. If it is a problem, then an easier way (if you can pull together the kit) may be to vacuum it down if the decks are or could be made to have no leaks.

But whatever you do remember the simple adage:

"If it is worth doing....it is worth doing badly"

:twisted:

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by Rupert » Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:29 am

I think the idea was to put something across to stop Bert stepping through the hull this Sunday?
Rupert

bert
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by bert » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:10 am

It`s all Ok Job done & leaving the house In about 20 minutes.
Sorry Ed but the idea of carbon makes me go cold.

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Ed
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Re: help! semi permanent bonding wanted

Post by Ed » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:49 am

Sorry Ed but the idea of carbon makes me go cold.
Can't think why?

it's only a bit of cloth.

Depends on the boat, I know, but if you can't see it I don't see why it matters.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

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