Firefly centrecase leaks...

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Ancient Geek
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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by Ancient Geek » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:00 am

Andrew,
Robbins are soooo expensive, and quality I am told, whilst good enough is not exceptional! However having done the South Coast a couple of years back to acquire some Agba Veneer for Garry, I got it but given the petrol costs it might have been cheaper to but a sheet from Robbins and post it to him 1st class!
Those steel screws, I have used three ways in the past and I know Garry Rucklidge does.
1. Give the screw a very hard tap which may "shock" it loose so you can unscrew it.
2. Apply mole grips to screw head for more leveredge.
3. And this is the banker, heat the screw up by applying a soldering iron to it this will expand it and lossen its grip in the hole.
Simples.

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Ed
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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by Ed » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:18 am

I very rarely have problem with steel screws....and can't remember getting 'many' in Fairey boats.....but they did tend to use what they had to hand....so if they ran out of brass....you would maybe get steel??

Have had them in Merlin keels though....and the above methods often did work.

But what are a complete pain are the old brass screws that just crumble as soon as you put a screwdriver to them, First the heads fall off, then if you can get to stub with mole-grips....the shafts break.

Would love any thoughts on best way of dealing with these....

My current method is to drill a hole much the same size as screw down alongside the screw, then drive an awl in on other side of screw to drill-hole, this pushes screw over enough to get a pair of needle nose pliars in to extract it. Any thoughts?

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Rupert
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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by Rupert » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:45 pm

I think I was picturing longer runs of rot than you have. Ed is quite right, for areas like that, there is enough land on the hog. (Are you sure it stops? - On Saskia the rot carried on further between hog and keel than it did in the open.)
Rupert

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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by ACB » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:51 pm

Rupert wrote:I think I was picturing longer runs of rot than you have. Ed is quite right, for areas like that, there is enough land on the hog. (Are you sure it stops? - On Saskia the rot carried on further between hog and keel than it did in the open.)

Oooh-err... :cry:

The brass keel band had been "re-attached" with a mixed bag of stainless midl steel and brass; the keel to hog screws are Fairey powdery brass, which I consider as a "dry run" for Uffa Fox powdery brass on the 14 (14 restorers have warned me that these are far worse than the 7,000 16 gauge copper nails!)

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Ed
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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by Ed » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:17 pm

I presume you really did dig out all the old rot....cos like Rupert says....it always goes so much further than you think, especially down the bit inside the Hog/keel gap.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by ACB » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:45 pm

Because, presumably, the veneers did not meet brilliantly well in the middle, and Aerolite was not wonderfully gap filling, so we have a fore and aft void space, bit like a ship's duct keel really, and equally nasty!

Makes me want to take the outer keel off after all.

F 3163 "Aquarius",
IC K229 nameless for the time being
I14 K377 "Mercury" - long term rebuild project

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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by Ed » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:51 pm

True....true...

and if you could get it off without damaging it....I would say go for it.

What worries me is that it gets broken in the process of removing.....so you have to replace with new bit.

If it is solid and I can leave it....I normally prefer to.

But as you say, it just shows how important it is to deal with those little baby cracks as soon as possible as the longer you leave them....the worse they get.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by ACB » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:30 pm

Like an MCC Umpire I will hold a pitch inspection tonight, and take pictures.

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IC K229 nameless for the time being
I14 K377 "Mercury" - long term rebuild project

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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by Ancient Geek » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:01 pm

Faint not nor fear one of Uffa's friends was one of the GKN lot and he -Uffa- used bronze screws! Another of his friends was Mr Terry - he of the clip- fortunately he didn't use them in boat building!
Simples.

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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by Ancient Geek » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:33 pm

If you look at the Firefly Building clip from Pathe that Garry posted a link to you'll see the keel was put on last the Hog stem and transom off the mould fitted in the venners staples and then the keel.
Those steel screws Merlin Builders were very bad in that respect except Bob Hoare, Aln and Andersen Rigen & Perkins, there was famous ocean racer built in Cowes that was wrecked off the Owers in 1973 or was it 4 anywat half - threequarters of the hull was recued and pulled out a Shoreham guess what -Stel Scews! AND that under Lloyds / RORC Building and a supposed Rolls Royce of yacht builders.
Simples.

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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:41 pm

The issue of Steel vs stainless steel I thought had some logic to it. (at least where Ocean racers are concerned...)

I thought that mild steel bolts might be used below the waterline for two reasons.

Firstly, if buried in the woodwork they would be in an anaerobic environment and so they should not rust.

Secondly, if the anaerobic protection is breached then the sight (and site) of rust marks give a sure warning of potential weakness or need for maintenance.

If used below the waterline in an anaerobic enviroment Stainless steel will not have the capacity to develop a protective oxide layer, and in acidic woods such as Oak, or where rot causes acid release, a corrosion cycle may lead to pitting and fissures which in turn can cause a bolt to fail suddenly without warning.

Of course this is irrelevant with regard to a firefly keel. That will have been plain laziness.

We discussed "nail sickness" some while ago on the forum, and the only prevention for this seems to be to cover any brass screws with wooden plugs. Very tedious. otherwise the usual method of Plastic wood inevitably cracks to allow ingress of H20 with resulting corrosion.

I keep re-iterating it (bitter experience) but do check your shroud plates if they are held with brass screws. If not bolted through the hull screwed in shroud plates are simply a broken mast waiting to happen. Expensive if its a new Selden and another sad loss of history if its a nice old Reynolds.
Michael Brigg

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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by DavidC » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:32 pm

Getting out broken screws is always a challenge but when the drilling of extra holes becomes necessary I have used these:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/hand-tools/dr ... extractors

They work really well leaving a nice straight small hole which can be plugged and reused.
:)

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Re: Firefly centrecase leaks...

Post by Rupert » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:51 pm

Good link, thanks David.
Rupert

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