best way to remove two pot varnish?

[Rupert]

But Ed, it is such fun every time!

[Ancient Geek]

Having taken counsel of a very experienced professional boatbuilder who not only builds new but has an international reputation as a restorer, to better than new racing boats his advice is.
Avoid all chemical, water and heat based treatments, they are bound to effect the wood, no matter how little. Abrasion of one sort or the other, scraper, abrasive paper, or preferably Walnut Shells is absolutely the best, and incidentally the quickest.
Do be brutal in removing and replacing timber of obvious or dubious quality.
Use only water based dyes or stains.
Ensure it is all very dry.
Before:
Do prime with thinned epoxy and full strength epoxy to follow.
He is agnostic as to finish with Copal, Polyurethane or Epoxy varnish one ot two pack, merely saying his personal boat is epoxy all the way, as is my new boat.
Do be diligent in maintainance of scratches and cuts.
Nothing is maintainance free, unless it is throw away.
Remember to think what the person who built it originally would be doing if he built it today. He would undoubtably be using modern adhesives, finishes and sealants.
Save a few bob today, spend a lot more next year.
Think of the longevity and stength of what you do, you want to sail it, in all conditions not mend it, or stay ashore.

[Ed]

Is it fun?

Oh all right then....I will re-join the fray:

AG, the advice from your experience professional boatbuilder....is good advice, for a 'experienced professional boatbuilder' but I don't think it is quite so good for those of us nursing an old piece of our maritime heritage and trying to find the right balance between conserving the boat in original condition and getting the best fun out of it in the present - all on a limited budget - without a pro workshop. In fact, I am afraid I have to advise caution to those who think that Epoxy is the answer to all boat-building problems.

I think that using epoxy well and effectively is a pretty skilled task, well within the ability of a experienced professional boatbuilder, but open to many pitfalls, when used by the amateur.

That is not to say that using epoxy is 'hard' or that epoxy is the wrong glue for the amateur, but only that the amateur needs to know 'when' and 'where' to use it....and when not to and accept that the professional boat-builder may want and have the ability to use it in ways others can (or should) not.

I don't want to go through all of the problems and pitfalls of epoxy and we have covered them in the past, but I would say that everyone that I know who has used Epoxy extensively can give you an example of when they used it ....and it was the wrong choice.

I honestly think that Epoxy has killed more old boats than it has ever saved.

As you say, there is no doubt that for a new-build epoxy must be best and indeed for bodge-gluing, epoxy is hard to beat, but it presumes you want to re-build the boat rather than restore it and using Epoxy to seal, cover, coat or varnish old boats is so very rarely the right option, unless so much has been re-built that it is in effect a new boat.

Epoxy is good in the short term, but in the medium to long term it will demand that you replace any wood that was covered in it, whereas wood covered in traditional coverings can be patched, repaired, striped, re-varnished almost ad infinitum.

I can understand why a professional boatbuilder would want to use it, it is quick, strong and easy to use, but will remove your ability to do the upkeep and will mean that more work needs to be done sooner....by the boatbuilder of course.

So do use Epoxy....but with care and prudence, it won't extend the long-term life of your boat.....at least in the form that you currently know it...
Use it as a glue....but take great care when using it as a coating....it doesn't breath, and it is a sod to patch and remove.
Pick the right jobs and the right boats for using it.
Epoxy works best when you use it in a very professional way....just as AG says. Remove all the compromised wood (that may mean far FAR more than you would like), re-build so all boat is tight and taut - any movement will let water into wood, which is unable to escape and will rot.
Make sure wood is truly dry and warm - Do you have a shed you can leave boat in for months at a warm temp....you do? you are most probably an experience professional boatbuilder then, and will find this unbelievably condescending!!

Is this sounding like I am saying don't ever use epoxy? I hope not. last year I sheathed the under-foot area of my Jollyboat with 300g bi-ax and epoxy. I know many would draw breath at this, but the bottom was so unstable, that I really needed to do something pretty drastic, which this is. I took care and I think/hope it was the best thing to do....but who knows, ask me in 20 years if I am still above water/ground.

So....has that got this thread going again.

cheers

eib

[Ancient Geek]

Ed,
I will just say that if you do it right, you only do it once!
The "Artful Bodgers" (Good name for a boat that!) will always find a way but will spend many more cold winter nights when they could be earning Brownie Points that would go to time off in the summer.
As to boats that fail to be rescued I would surmise that the bodgers and I do not use that in a judgemental or its original (Chair leg making.) useage but in an inexperienced sense.

[Ed]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.........

I think that is possibly the knub of the problem.

I just don't think that you can take a 'do it once - do it right approach' to old boats.

It is all comparative....when the boat was built, they did it once and hopefully got it right, but the very fact that you are now trying to renovate the boat, shows that the time comes, when you have to start again. It is the nature of wooden boats that if used....and stored outside, they will get wet in the water....hot in the sun...bumped by other boats and scratched....the coating will slowly become oxidised....and sooner or later....you will have to do it again.

If you store the boat inside, or don't use it or both, this will be later rather than sooner, but still....if the boat is going to last in the long term, you will have to remove the coating and start again.

The problem with Epoxy is that it can be very hard to remove without destroying the substrate underneath.

It is also a problem because it is hard to patch invisibly and blend in new epoxy coatings. If you go down to the wood, it is practically impossible to patch and get the wood back to the same colour. It just always fades differently. Not easy with varnish....but much easier than with epoxy.

But you must must keep on top of all patches and scratches....because if not.... there is the simple problem that epoxy is much more watertight and has very little micro-porosity. If you have any cracks or breaks in the coating, water is sucked into the wood by osmosis, particularly along the grain, but once there it can not evaporate out again through the surface as it would with varnish. This means that you can get horrid patches of dark wood and milky coating, which refuse to dry out....until the wood rots. The only good thing is that at least it is easier to strip then, but unless you do it quickly the wood will be soft as goo anyway.

In regular use...
Epoxy coating can give you 5-10 (15 stored inside?) years before re-coating, but then you will have a lot of work to do, and quite likely new ply. It is true that you will get more (much more?) if professionally done on a really stable boat, but maybe less on a old clinker Merlin that is used regularly and kept outside.

Traditional coating will need re-doing or at least topping up every 2-4 years with a back to the wood every 6-8? years, but it will be much easier and done regularly there is no reason why the wood can not go on being used for 50 years.

Of course, this all depends on how much the boat is used, where stored etc and I know there are many boats still sailing on much older varnish (and maybe epoxy)....but I reckon that is what I have got roughly.

So if you want to get another 5 years out of a boat with minimum input....epoxy may be the way to go...but if you want to pass the boat down to your kids....maybe you want to stick traditional.
Still.....I admit to loving epoxy for the right tasks and right boats.

Much better on a Fairey boat than a Holt clinker boat!

cheers

eib

[Ancient Geek]

This is developing into a duolgue however I never suggested epoxy is maintainance free indeed just like GRP you need to keep right on top of dents and scratches for the rason I gave which are the same as yours.
A nice idea to hand things down but experience shows that these things skip generations the sheds of Norfolk and Hampshire are full of hand me downs unwanted.
Of course some boats stay in families the Norfolk Dinghies, Broads one Designs, XOD and Seaview Mermaids come to mind and it is a good thing they do.
The young tend to want the latest super dooper whatever I know I did it was only when I began to grow up I fell for the older model (Women & Boats!).

[Nessa]

You see whoever attempted the first 'restoration' of Agamemnon just lobbed on the epoxy willy nilly and has left me with a nightmarish task in getting it all off again. I am aware that I am an amateurish bodger (partly why I am scared of the Agamemnon job) and therefore wouldn't mind making a similar mistake on an old wreck like the Marauder, but the 14 demands much better care.

I will therefore not use epoxy on Agamemnon (if I ever get the old stuff off) but will use it for bits of the Marauder, the rest of which will be either varnish or G4.

I think what I'm saying is it depends not only on the skill of the restorer, but also on the perceived value of the boat.

[Ancient Geek]

I have never advocated the "lobbing on" of epoxy, always, -and I am sure this applies to traditional finishes too,- but taking it back to clean sound bare wood. It is agonising hard work I am sure unless you use walnut shells.
A good Matt cartoon in todays Telegraph a man insisting on the preservation of frozen railway line points for future generations!