My Fairey Firefly has had some very unsympathetic hull patching done to it and I am keen to get it on the water as soon as possible, is there any accepted wisdom, best kinds of paint/undercoat to use for this job?
Anyone able to give me a Mk number for the boat would also be useful, I think it might be a Mk 2, but I dont know about these things, I certainly cant find a sail/hull number on it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/okapi2009/4273482045/
Many thanks
Painting plywood
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Michael Brigg
- Posts: 1663
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:11 pm
- Location: Gosport, UK
Re: Painting plywood
Hi Faireycake and welcome to the forum.
Sorry I cant access your flickr acount as I am not a Yahoo user, but you know you can post a picture on this site of your little beauty. Neil tells you how its done in the "Image posting guide" thread in the Announcements section of the forum...
Anyway, as far as Mark is concerned,...
This links to the Firefly class rules. You will fing all the dimensions for the different marks in the drawings pp 12-19
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDoc ... irefly.pdf
Mark 1: Wide flat ply sidedecks, flat (uncambered) foredeck with fore-aft support beams and a 1inch hieght "breakwater" across the foredeck. Almost certainly has Diagonal planking on the external veneer of the cold moulded hull. Probably has Boxed in side bouyancy tanks.
Mark 2: "Narrow" ( 65-70 inwhale + 25-50mm gunwhale) sidedecks constructed of thick vertically laminated strips. Rounded camber on Foredeck and no breakwater. If origial Mark2 the side tanks are replaced by a bench with bouyancy bags underneath. Almost all the original mk2's were horizontally planked on the outer veneer, a construction technique introduced due to the difficulties obtaining agba veneers of sufficient length and thickness for the Diagonal construction. Unless the sail/hull number is in the low 3000's, if diagonal strip, it's almost certainly a convertion from an original mark 1. (Sail nos <3110.) A convertion may well still have side tanks.
Mark 3: Same appearance as Mark 2, introduced as a cheaper easier conversion as the Mark 1 "look" was felt (in the 1970's) to have too "dated" a feel and was causing punters to choose other classes (such as the 420) and the cost and skill required for a Mark 2 convertion was making Mark 1 boats un- saleable. The Mark 3 decks are a thinner ply laminate on a supporting beam.
Mark 4: A bit like a mark 3 but the decks are continued downwards to form a completely enclosed bouyancy tank and the fordeck is part of a completely enclosed bow tank. Almost all mark 4's are convertions from older marks and for serious racers represent the best way of putting new life and stiffness into old hulls. The Mark was introduced to equalise the advantage of additional bouyancy (for quicker capsize recovery and sailing on open sea) achieved by Plastic (rondar) boats and also to give an option to solve some of the problem issues in "rebuilding" an older hull.
You can completely modernise your boat or restore her to her original state depending on your preference! In theory all the marks are equal, (if down to weight with new sails, properly tuned spars and a hot helm) and in practice most of them genuinely are.
In the CVRDA they are sailed both crewed and single handed (as in the 1948 olympics)
More info on their website. http://www.fireflysailing.org.uk as well as a warm welcome.
Sorry I cant access your flickr acount as I am not a Yahoo user, but you know you can post a picture on this site of your little beauty. Neil tells you how its done in the "Image posting guide" thread in the Announcements section of the forum...
Anyway, as far as Mark is concerned,...
This links to the Firefly class rules. You will fing all the dimensions for the different marks in the drawings pp 12-19
http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDoc ... irefly.pdf
Mark 1: Wide flat ply sidedecks, flat (uncambered) foredeck with fore-aft support beams and a 1inch hieght "breakwater" across the foredeck. Almost certainly has Diagonal planking on the external veneer of the cold moulded hull. Probably has Boxed in side bouyancy tanks.
Mark 2: "Narrow" ( 65-70 inwhale + 25-50mm gunwhale) sidedecks constructed of thick vertically laminated strips. Rounded camber on Foredeck and no breakwater. If origial Mark2 the side tanks are replaced by a bench with bouyancy bags underneath. Almost all the original mk2's were horizontally planked on the outer veneer, a construction technique introduced due to the difficulties obtaining agba veneers of sufficient length and thickness for the Diagonal construction. Unless the sail/hull number is in the low 3000's, if diagonal strip, it's almost certainly a convertion from an original mark 1. (Sail nos <3110.) A convertion may well still have side tanks.
Mark 3: Same appearance as Mark 2, introduced as a cheaper easier conversion as the Mark 1 "look" was felt (in the 1970's) to have too "dated" a feel and was causing punters to choose other classes (such as the 420) and the cost and skill required for a Mark 2 convertion was making Mark 1 boats un- saleable. The Mark 3 decks are a thinner ply laminate on a supporting beam.
Mark 4: A bit like a mark 3 but the decks are continued downwards to form a completely enclosed bouyancy tank and the fordeck is part of a completely enclosed bow tank. Almost all mark 4's are convertions from older marks and for serious racers represent the best way of putting new life and stiffness into old hulls. The Mark was introduced to equalise the advantage of additional bouyancy (for quicker capsize recovery and sailing on open sea) achieved by Plastic (rondar) boats and also to give an option to solve some of the problem issues in "rebuilding" an older hull.
You can completely modernise your boat or restore her to her original state depending on your preference! In theory all the marks are equal, (if down to weight with new sails, properly tuned spars and a hot helm) and in practice most of them genuinely are.
In the CVRDA they are sailed both crewed and single handed (as in the 1948 olympics)
More info on their website. http://www.fireflysailing.org.uk as well as a warm welcome.
Michael Brigg
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Michael Brigg
- Posts: 1663
- Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:11 pm
- Location: Gosport, UK
Re: Painting plywood
Oh, and the paint.
Any decent quality marine enamel for coulor. The world is your oyster. There are extensive arguments on this site about epoxy vs natural (spirit) base paints. I would keep the varnish as you can keep an eye on the wood that way and personally I prefer natural paint for ease of removal in the future. It does perhaps demand more maintenance.
Most Fireflies that have painted hulls tend to retain the internal varnish finish and a varnished deck. It just looks nicer.
Any decent quality marine enamel for coulor. The world is your oyster. There are extensive arguments on this site about epoxy vs natural (spirit) base paints. I would keep the varnish as you can keep an eye on the wood that way and personally I prefer natural paint for ease of removal in the future. It does perhaps demand more maintenance.
Most Fireflies that have painted hulls tend to retain the internal varnish finish and a varnished deck. It just looks nicer.
Michael Brigg
Re: Painting plywood
I can log in to Flickr.....but it told me the image was private.
so the mystery continues
eib
so the mystery continues
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
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Faireycake
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:48 pm
Re: Painting plywood
Thought I'd try an intuitive approach to posting the image:
The plan is to varnish the transom and the foredeck etc, only painting the hull itself. From a brief forum scan I see G4 is well regarded, and the use of Nitromors is not frowned upon, great news!
The plan is to varnish the transom and the foredeck etc, only painting the hull itself. From a brief forum scan I see G4 is well regarded, and the use of Nitromors is not frowned upon, great news!
- Attachments
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- Deck1.jpg
- (98.49 KiB) Downloaded 382 times
Re: Painting plywood
Faireycake, welcome to the forum and to the cvrda. As you have found out there is a huge amount of knowledge and oppinion here, a good deal of it conflicting but all is well intentioned. Please keep us informed of progress and it would be great to see you joining us on the water in the summer.
I tried the cheap option of using exterior houshold paint one year on my GP but wasnt entirely satisfied so reverted back to marine paints. I also used G4 on the decks etc of my Hornet and I have to say the results are very good indeed it is much more pleasant to use than UCP and cheaper. You do need to use a good varnish on top for UV protection.
Rog
I tried the cheap option of using exterior houshold paint one year on my GP but wasnt entirely satisfied so reverted back to marine paints. I also used G4 on the decks etc of my Hornet and I have to say the results are very good indeed it is much more pleasant to use than UCP and cheaper. You do need to use a good varnish on top for UV protection.
Rog
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Re: Painting plywood
She is a MK2. If you want more history, contact Peter Lanham via the Firefly class website.
As for paint, I'm a hot air blower person, as it dries the wood as you go. (AG will say walnut shells...) I'd not use G4 under paint unless you have a good couple of weeks (more in this weather) to allow the thinners to evaporate. You will then have to rub down very well.
You may find that when she is stripped and sanded back she is so pretty you want to varnish. Think of the patches as battle scars. That has been my approach with Saskia, and she has a couple of huge patches.
On Fireflies I've pained in the past, I have used varnish as primer, so that it is possible for someone in the future to take back to a varnished state.
As for paint, I'm a hot air blower person, as it dries the wood as you go. (AG will say walnut shells...) I'd not use G4 under paint unless you have a good couple of weeks (more in this weather) to allow the thinners to evaporate. You will then have to rub down very well.
You may find that when she is stripped and sanded back she is so pretty you want to varnish. Think of the patches as battle scars. That has been my approach with Saskia, and she has a couple of huge patches.
On Fireflies I've pained in the past, I have used varnish as primer, so that it is possible for someone in the future to take back to a varnished state.
Rupert
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Garry R
Re: Painting plywood
Rupert, you are in severe danger of having the Firefly social workers round to the house to see how you have been treating Saskia!!On Fireflies I have pained in the past!!
Re: Painting plywood
Yes, interesting question about 'how long to leave G4 before re-coating'
On the whole I totally agree with Rupert.....but two thoughts.
One of the advertised uses of G4 is as a binding coat. Especially underneath polyester resin. As we know one of the problems of using polyester resin is that it isn't always very good at bonding itself....Wood 'may' be OK, but metal or concrete can be a problem. You can use G4 to make good bond and then over-coat with Polyester resin whilst G4 is still tender and you are supposed to get a good chemical bond between polyester and substrate.
What I am trying to get at is that G4 is very good at bonding to the next coat....if applied quite early in its own curing process. But in my experience it is quite hard to get a good bond of next coat, once it has really fully cured. As Rupert says....the sanding is REALLY important, but even then I have found that the bond to next coat is not that strong. The other thing is that G4 is hard....and sanding it, especially enough to get a good mechanical bond, is really time consuming and hard work.
I think this can be an issue under Varnish. The sanding may need to be course enough to introduce problems with being visible under the top-coat. Any less and there may not be a very good bond. For instance I used G4 on topsides of Jollyboat, let harden, sanded with 120grit and varnished. When I went back to sand the varnish, I found it was very easy to go through the varnish, get an edge to it and then be able to peel it back off the G4. This is on brand new varnish over brand new hardened G4. The bond was really not that impressive.
This is not always a bad thing. I like hard primers that stick to the wood better than the next coat as when you strip the paint off....if you are clever, you can go down to the primer, but not damage the wood too much.
But I am also curious as to whether a traditional paint over G4 would stop the evaporation of diluent in the G4. Most traditional paints are so micro-porous that I think the diluent would evaporate straight through anyway. A twin-pack over G4 could be a problem.....but might also provide the best or strongest coating system over the G4.
All just thoughts and wonders really.... I think Rupert is right....best practice would be to let it harden and sand it really thoroughly.
But G4 is weird stuff.....and as much as I like using it.....I don't see it as the total panacea that some do.
eib
On the whole I totally agree with Rupert.....but two thoughts.
One of the advertised uses of G4 is as a binding coat. Especially underneath polyester resin. As we know one of the problems of using polyester resin is that it isn't always very good at bonding itself....Wood 'may' be OK, but metal or concrete can be a problem. You can use G4 to make good bond and then over-coat with Polyester resin whilst G4 is still tender and you are supposed to get a good chemical bond between polyester and substrate.
What I am trying to get at is that G4 is very good at bonding to the next coat....if applied quite early in its own curing process. But in my experience it is quite hard to get a good bond of next coat, once it has really fully cured. As Rupert says....the sanding is REALLY important, but even then I have found that the bond to next coat is not that strong. The other thing is that G4 is hard....and sanding it, especially enough to get a good mechanical bond, is really time consuming and hard work.
I think this can be an issue under Varnish. The sanding may need to be course enough to introduce problems with being visible under the top-coat. Any less and there may not be a very good bond. For instance I used G4 on topsides of Jollyboat, let harden, sanded with 120grit and varnished. When I went back to sand the varnish, I found it was very easy to go through the varnish, get an edge to it and then be able to peel it back off the G4. This is on brand new varnish over brand new hardened G4. The bond was really not that impressive.
This is not always a bad thing. I like hard primers that stick to the wood better than the next coat as when you strip the paint off....if you are clever, you can go down to the primer, but not damage the wood too much.
But I am also curious as to whether a traditional paint over G4 would stop the evaporation of diluent in the G4. Most traditional paints are so micro-porous that I think the diluent would evaporate straight through anyway. A twin-pack over G4 could be a problem.....but might also provide the best or strongest coating system over the G4.
All just thoughts and wonders really.... I think Rupert is right....best practice would be to let it harden and sand it really thoroughly.
But G4 is weird stuff.....and as much as I like using it.....I don't see it as the total panacea that some do.
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Re: Painting plywood
Ed, would Bonda Seal Clear be a solution to the UV problem. it is more expensive but still I think a lot cheaper than most varnishes and from what I can understand is basically G4 with a UV inhibitor.
CFS in Cornwall have it listed with the specs etc under coatings at http://www.cfsnet.co.uk
Its just that the prospect of my forthcoming wooden Finn has me looking into these things now, so thought I had better ask.
CFS in Cornwall have it listed with the specs etc under coatings at http://www.cfsnet.co.uk
Its just that the prospect of my forthcoming wooden Finn has me looking into these things now, so thought I had better ask.
GBR74 ex custodian of
GBR384 Mickey Finnale (Taylor,wood)
GBR455 Rubber Duck (Taylor, grp)
FD GBR350 Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious
GBR384 Mickey Finnale (Taylor,wood)
GBR455 Rubber Duck (Taylor, grp)
FD GBR350 Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious
Re: Painting plywood
CFS seem to be pretty knowledgeable on Bondamarine products....so I would ask them...
but my understanding is yes. the BondaSeal Clear is just G4 with a UV inhibitor in it...so you could top-coat with that.....if you wanted....
My thoughts....for what they are worth....on best 'traditional-type' clear coating system on a budget is this:
Primer: G4
1st coat well thinned, another 2 coats with 5-10% thinners. All hot coated. only allow first coat to get touch dry before applying next coat.
Middle Coats:
For traditional work-boat look - use Ravilak Varnish - I just love it
For high-gloss finish - use standard single pack alkyd type varnish, Diamond...ur...or Spontan..or Classic...good choice...any good marine varnish.
Top Coats:
Traditional work-boat look - More and more Ravilak
High gloss racing finish - Epiphanes. Nothing beats it for high-gloss, strength and ease of application.
OK....the Epiphanes is expensive.....but the G4 is very cheap especially if you buy a 5Kg can. Ravilak is about the cheapest varnish I can find - approx £10 a litre. Spontan is not my favourite varnish....but again is cheap.
Buy G4 from CFS and Spontan/Ravilak from Sheppard Marine http://www.shepherdmarine.com/
If you are ever going to do an order from Sheppard Marine, I will always add somethign and go halves with the postage.
Don't have a cheap option for Epiphanes I am afraid.
Options for those with deep pockets?
Primer - UCP or Blakes Woodseal, followed by Ravilak or Epiphanes.
cheeers
eib
but my understanding is yes. the BondaSeal Clear is just G4 with a UV inhibitor in it...so you could top-coat with that.....if you wanted....
My thoughts....for what they are worth....on best 'traditional-type' clear coating system on a budget is this:
Primer: G4
1st coat well thinned, another 2 coats with 5-10% thinners. All hot coated. only allow first coat to get touch dry before applying next coat.
Middle Coats:
For traditional work-boat look - use Ravilak Varnish - I just love it
For high-gloss finish - use standard single pack alkyd type varnish, Diamond...ur...or Spontan..or Classic...good choice...any good marine varnish.
Top Coats:
Traditional work-boat look - More and more Ravilak
High gloss racing finish - Epiphanes. Nothing beats it for high-gloss, strength and ease of application.
OK....the Epiphanes is expensive.....but the G4 is very cheap especially if you buy a 5Kg can. Ravilak is about the cheapest varnish I can find - approx £10 a litre. Spontan is not my favourite varnish....but again is cheap.
Buy G4 from CFS and Spontan/Ravilak from Sheppard Marine http://www.shepherdmarine.com/
If you are ever going to do an order from Sheppard Marine, I will always add somethign and go halves with the postage.
Don't have a cheap option for Epiphanes I am afraid.
Options for those with deep pockets?
Primer - UCP or Blakes Woodseal, followed by Ravilak or Epiphanes.
cheeers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Re: Painting plywood
Back onto the Firefly in question, the sail number should be on the hog behind the toe strap fitting. In the picture, there appears to be something there, but can't make out what. There also should be a hull number on the transom, which will be different from the sail No, but the records may be able to match it all up.
Rupert