1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

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Ancient Geek
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by Ancient Geek »

Nick
I in no way would deny anyone the pleasure of sailing an original boat especially if they eshew lifejackets, waterproof clothing, dry suits etc., and wear period clothing too!
David C has a very valid set of points in his nicely written piece above.
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Fantasia
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by Fantasia »

Thank you all for your replies and particularly for your notes of caution. I agree very much that this boat should be sailed and a suggestion that I should sail her first before any restoration has great appeal (although buoyancy bags may be needed). Indeed the boat has been given to me by Clive Charles, who had owned her since about 1967, with the understanding that she should be sailed. I shall aim to take him out as soon as possible. I do not want to be drawn into a full-on restoration, with all its inherent risks, some of which have been described. I would rather it still had a few blemishes and was still sailed, than win a Concours D'elegance. I am also very aware of the amount of time that such a project can absorb, that is time that I would rather spend sailing. I have restored a number of wooden boats before: Scorpion, Phantom, Osprey, Wayfarer, a couple of yachts and have assisted building a Merlin Rocket; but the construction of this 14 is a different matter altogether and I think that I am reasonably lucky that it is in quite good condition and shall hopefully avoid having to make difficult decisions about using modern materials on the hull. I have no problem however with using modern materials for cordage sails and fittings as they can all be removed in the future. I just do not want to do anything that would cause damage or would be irreversible.

Anyway I must now get back to rigging my Wayfarer, so that I can make space for this ancient beauty in my workshop.
John Hartley
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chris
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by chris »

I'm certainly on the side of not modernising boats of a certain age, so I disagree with the sentiments expresed by some above. Yet I would say it is the owners choice and how they will use the boat. The first thing would be to ask yourself how strong is the hull? It's probably weaker than when newly built so to put a rig on it that increases all the forces on the hull would be asking for trouble. so do you start reinforcing the hull?
I would not use epoxy on a ribbed hull. they were designed to move and need to move. Mixing two conflicting technologies is not a good thing here. Epoxy can also shorten the life of a hull because it will trap in moisture. I would suggest it is quite impossible to seal a ribbed hull 100 percent with epoxy and therefore moisture will find its way in but not out so rot is encouraged.

If sailing with the modern fleet or even regular club sailing is the future of a old boat then fine modernise it. Otherwise I ask why modernise it? it should find the right sort of sailing within the CVRDA especially if it is in original or near original condition. I don't believe in authenticity in the extreme - I will use stainless rigging rather than galvanised for instance (and what you wear is just irrelevant). But if there are other boats in the same sort of condition then a race is just as good whether you sail with old cotton sails or not because you are on equal terms. I have seen the problems caused by modernisation on instruments, in some cases eventually writing them off. Same thing, they were not designed to cope with an increase in tension.

Each boat needs it's own consideration.
So restore it so that it can be sailed within the boats capabiltiesand then join in the races that the CVRDA put on.
Fantasia
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by Fantasia »

Each boat needs it's own consideration.
So restore it so that it can be sailed within the boats capabiltiesand then join in the races that the CVRDA put on.[/quote]

That is exactly what I intend to do.
John Hartley
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Nigel
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by Nigel »

Ancient Geek wrote:especially if they eshew lifejackets, waterproof clothing, dry suits etc
Definitely something we should not condone or encourage as an organisation in my opinion.
chris
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by chris »

Excellent!, I look forward to have some good races. Some years ago Andrew Thornhill used to bring a wonderful 14 to some of the events and it was great fun trying to keep up with him. Since then I often fancied an early 14 so I'm very envious. I think your original instincts at the top of this thread were just right.
DavidC
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by DavidC »

Every owner must make their own decision of course, but we must be careful that we do not place boats - or designers for that matter - on a pedestal of perfection. People used what they had at the time and Uffa would be the first to mix epoxy which does not necessarily mean that it should be used in every situation. Equally, the moment we start to pick and chose then we lose the moral high ground of purity. Either use exactly the methods in force at the time and the materials and race in exactly the same way (which of course means retirement for racing infringements) and wear the correct clothing or use what is best now to preserve the boat for as many years as possible and wear what might be more comfortable and safer - although as AR said, if not duffers, won't drown!

Boats are so far removed from furniture and indeed instruments Chris, that there should be no comparison in ethics. Furniture is a different world and although generally made to be useful it was not expected to be subjected to the forces and conditions of boats. Some pieces of furniture may be worth thousands, but dinghies never will be. If someone offered £1500 for a fully restored dinghy I would advise the seller to bite the arm off! I totally support keeping boats sailing but the number that are remotely "very special" is minuscule and far to many are a product of marketing rather than real value. Avenger is looked on as special and yet lies in Cowes with a hole in bottom big enough for a bus and frankly tells us nothing compared to what she would tell us still sailing.

We hear a lot about being custodians and in which case we are beholden to keep the boats stiff and racing for as long as possible. Remember these boats were built to race, race hard and to the death. Then you throw it away and have another one - they were not built as examples of craftsman ship to be cherished, they were a means to an end. Every designer, builder, sail maker etc had one goal in mind - fastest and win. As soon as something new became available it would be used and old boats re-fitted while they could be. Some things worked, some didn't but to assume that everything that happened after the boat was first built as a crime and the poor designer must be upset that someone had changed his work is as far from the truth as possible. Remember fastest and win - the designers would advise any client to update and often led the advice themselves. Therefore the changes in a boat are as important as the original start point.

What methods chose will be different each time. I watched "Daring" launched last year after work by the Boat Building College and frankly it was a waste of time. I have a colander that is more watertight. The nail holes leaked and the boat just filled. Now all you have is a soaking wet boat that will rot from the inside out.

I would be very wary of launching this 14 if it is really dry now. All you will do is soak between the planks which will be difficult to dry and who knows what long term problems that will cause. I would not suggest for a minute that you fit a carbon rig and Mylar sails but equally I would want a boat that sails, sails well, can be raced hard and not have to stay ashore every time the wind goes over a force 1. That is destroying the spirit of the boat and what she was built to do. Modern fittings and Dacron cloth would be welcomed by the original owner that is certain. Epoxy may not be the answer to everything, but in an old boat, sheathed outside with epoxy and something such as a 150gm cloth which will be invisible when finished will give a boat which will be stiff, wont leak, can be sailed hard and will provide joy for generations to come, doing what it was designed to do - race to win.

D :D
roger
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by roger »

I just cannot agree with you David. There are certain boats in the cvrda that certainly should not be modernised full stop. (Rannoch, Iska and Shoestring spring to mind). We have a concours event but it is more of a fun thing not at all like the car club ones where you have to absolutely true to the cars originaltiy. Shoestring needs new spreaders after the old alloy ones broke at Roadford last year(they were 50 years old). Chris thinks its some kind of post war alloy which is probably no longer available so should I spend hours searching for the next best thing? I dont think so she will get stainless ones.
I think some boats need to be kept as original as practically possible but also kept sailing. Last year at Roadford a chap brought a qualifying but modern Hornet with his daughter, she was fascinated by the sliding seat and I allowed dad to take her out in Shoestring which she then decided she wanted a boat with a sliding seat. They now have my other old boat so she can sail with a plank and I found a home for a boat that was sitting in the garden at the end of a very long to do list.
My point is these old boats with outdated technology need to be seen out and about by the generations that follow so they can see and try the developments that failed or didnt catch on(eg Jools tunnel Hull moth seen last month at Whitefriars).
Some boats need preserving as they are, and some yes develop them especially if there are lots about like GPs and Ents.
Classes that have developed have a heritage that needs to be preserved not in some photo archive but in real life on the water and in action.
Epoxy? I use it a lot but would not coat any of my boats in it, but I did use G4 on the decks of Shoestring last time round.
As said above and many times before its your boat do as much as you wish to her but above all enjoy her and get her on the water. No one at a cvrda event will criticise you for discarding cotton ropes, or donning your wetsuit( the water was bl**dy cold at whitefriars). We just like to race and race hard and enjoy our boats.
Ethics in restoration ? leave that to to the car fanatics.

ps I also have some horrible plastic Holt fairleads on Shoestring they were there when i was given her :shock:
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Ancient Geek
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by Ancient Geek »

David C,
Would never blow his own trumpet but not only is he a a Boat Builder of very broad experience from ancient clinker one designs to ultra modern multi hulls, a model maker of talent to industry especially, an ISAF measurer and rule drafter of great repute, an experienced sailor both sail and power but a furniture restorer of repute (He has done a couple of pieces for me over the years.) but also a talented musician with his own ensemble but and I think this is correct has restored a number of instruments from written off to being played regularly including his own clarinet, I would absolutely agree with what he says. He's a very busy man deservedly so.
AG
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by Ancient Geek »

I should add that there are some things and some of these lost or forgotten classes are examples that are like Doctor Johnsons' Dog - that is to say it's not wether they are done well or badly but that they be done at all. I occasional am silly enough to pay good money to go to a revival of something in theatre or concert hall that has been "lost" fot a long time, I have failed to understan why it was "lost" and hope that it got lost again this time for ever!
Darwin was right!
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roger
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by roger »

AG I was not questionnig Davids undoubted abilities just disagreeing with him in this instance. In my oppinion the cvrda is there to welcome all qualifying boats no matter what their condition. They are loved by their owners.
If we are not about preserving some of the great heritage of the last 60 years of dinghy design then we may as well not exist.
The origin of this thread was a simple question about how far a restoration should go and what ethics and oppinions we had. I guess he was worried we would go all classic car on him and be rude about his boat. I think we have answered his question and I am sure he didnt expect to stir up such strong oppinions
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by Rupert »

Quite right that a racing boat will be updated as much as possible to get her to the front of the fleet for as long as possible. Hence Saskia the Firefly is as up to date as I want her to be, even at 51, so she can win Firefly races, if I can get some practice...

But once a boat is so out of date that she no longer stands a chance? Should she be abandoned and left to rot? Most are.
If someone comes along and sees a boat that they, with a little work, can get on the water and have some fun in? Much better than rot.
If someone else sees a boat and thinks, I want to put her back as she was - I know the changes made her faster, but that doesn't matter now, as she will no longer win class races - I just wan't to see her as originally built, rather than let her rot.
Someone else again sees an old boat. They think, where I sail, an old boat like that could win races against new boats if I stiffen her up and put a modern rig on, the hull is perfect for my water. Seems better than rot.

All options seem good to me.
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by admin »

Seeing as Rannoch got mentioned I'll add my opinion as a former reasonably active CVRDA member and serial boat repairer and I don't pay a little man to do my work for me.

As I've said before I'm not comfortable sailing a 1948 boat hard until she breaks, I race her when I want to and that's my decision, but at least she's not in a museum and does get wet occasionally. I wear a wet suit and bouyancy aid, and won't sail without one - it's one of those great advances in technology that I prefer to embrace. Should we be sailing our old Finns in a weight jacket for the sake of authenticity? Possibly but then I'd have to decline the 21st Century knee replacement technology also for the sake of authenticity.

Rannoch needs rerigging. Currently she has galvanised wire shrouds. Will I replace with the same? Certainly not - I can't stand the stuff so I'll be using stainless. Will this upset the rivet counters? Probably, but I don't care. It's my boat and I'll sail her how and when I like.

That's the ethics of restoration - if you are putting in the time and effort then it's up to you what and how you do it. The only responsibility is to yourself not to the armchair critics.

Personally I get annoyed with the number of so called 'restored' classic yachts (even though I worked on a few) - these have had all new frames, all new planking, new decks, new rig. In fact there is nothing of the original boat left, but it's still considered a 'restored' classic. At least in the car world they would be put on a Q plate.
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by Ancient Geek »

A number of points from comments by others:

I agree with admin whoever he may be (Ed denies it!) that is up to the restorer and the depth of his/her pockets, all I ask is not to scorn those who "give employment to the artisan", simply because you prefer for whatever reason (Fiscal, emotional, control of project or quality of work, or the sheer joy of it.) to do it yourself.

Chris, I am certain that Jack Holt and others of the time Uffa included did not know enough about stress and other things to design any boat to move, that they did move was a side effect of the limitations of their knowledge (That came with Austin Farrar, Bruce Banks, Ian Proctor et al.) and the materials available (Bear in mind that dinghies in the UK 1945-50 were built largely with War Surplus and Black Market, or Side Tracked materials.) Anyone who as I did had a very early Enterprise (No 150 from new - then no 2086.) will know (Side deck knees especially.) how little Jack understood where stress ended up in a boat. Once Bruce Banks, Austin etc., began and glues became universally available the boats began to stiffen up PDQ!

Oh the joy of weight jackets! (Irony.) Took that off after a race and you felt a young man again!
Racing in a class with a fairly stiff upper weight limit getting weght out of out sailing weight is the thing for three reasonably fit men of 6' tall, is it me or are people getting either a lot bigger or a lot smaller?
My orthopod assures me knees are along with hemeroids and dupytrens contracture are the three yotties diseases.)

As to fully restored yachts or indeed contemporary replicas, like the about at last to be sailed replica of King Edward the 7ths and King George the Fifths Brittania, (Her sails have been languishing at Ratseys' her mast hoops and blocks at Yarmouth for far too long.) the rebuilding of the various J's and new ones we can only admire if only, mainly from afar. It is sad that many projects have stalled in the credit crunch.

I am just about old enough to remember the joys of the Ranelagh Winter series pre-wet suit, cotton sails, hemp or cotton sheets etc and the rapture of Terylene and Dacron sails Marlow artificial ropes and wet suits. Though the later I have never embraced, with my figure it has always been contraindicated by the fashion police!
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.

Post by davidh »

Hi all from the high tech, carbon riddled, lycra clad lovelies rich environment of the Weymouth and Portland regatta site. Yes, I'm still here, it's a tough life being involved with these places as well Dave C knows (as he was the first real person I saw on arrival here more than a week ago).

To my mind, it comes down to the individual taste. Although nowhere near as old as ISKA or even Half Cut (2121) dear old Smokey Bear, 3025, is not currently fit for being raced as hard as one would a modern boat. It just goes to show, smokey bear had been fine and had been more than beefy enough for the gentle sailing of last week. Then, I get a 'hot' crew and we get a sniff of a good race, push hard and the rest, as they say, is history.

So Smokey Bear will be walnut shelled and put back together with copious amounts of epoxy, just so that things don't pull apart should I want to drive the boat hard.

D
David H
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