1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
I would say an also ran crew, rather than hot!!
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
Thought I would take a back seat on this one.....
Said enough on the subject in the past...one way and another.
But lots of sensible stuff written by many people.
The key things for me are:
It is up to the owner....there arn't any absolutes....or rules and we havn't got to the levels of the car'n'bike nuts. You can do what you want - what you feel is appropriate for you, your racing and the boat.
But the important point is that the CVRDA is able and happy to support and provide racing for everyone with a classic boat, from those who want to totally re-build and modernise their boats through to those who want to re-build to original spec and finally to those who want to keep the boat as original as possible, with as little renovation as they can. CVRDA handicappers will try to give good racing to all these boats...
....and if anything, to slightly favour the 'original' spec boats against the 'modernised' as it is felt that the 'original' boats are more in ethos than the modernised boats.
But I do really agree with Roger. There are just some boats that it would be a crime to modernise and others that it really doesn't matter too much with.
When I owned Iska, I found it very frustrating as I couldn't really modernise it, but was always scared of breaking it.....so was very happy for the boat to go to Chris, who was so much better able to give her the life she deserved.
I really don't wan't to go down the pros'n'cons of epoxy again, I am a BIG fan of epoxy....but it just isn't the total panacea for all restoration that some suggest. It might work in 1-5 years, but then you have a problem. But depends what you want. For some people, they just want 5 years of easy use and thats it.
For myself, I feel personally more drawn to the 'modernise' camp.....but have always admired those in the 'original' camp.
but the important thing is that we have room for both.
cheers
eib
Said enough on the subject in the past...one way and another.
But lots of sensible stuff written by many people.
The key things for me are:
It is up to the owner....there arn't any absolutes....or rules and we havn't got to the levels of the car'n'bike nuts. You can do what you want - what you feel is appropriate for you, your racing and the boat.
But the important point is that the CVRDA is able and happy to support and provide racing for everyone with a classic boat, from those who want to totally re-build and modernise their boats through to those who want to re-build to original spec and finally to those who want to keep the boat as original as possible, with as little renovation as they can. CVRDA handicappers will try to give good racing to all these boats...
....and if anything, to slightly favour the 'original' spec boats against the 'modernised' as it is felt that the 'original' boats are more in ethos than the modernised boats.
But I do really agree with Roger. There are just some boats that it would be a crime to modernise and others that it really doesn't matter too much with.
When I owned Iska, I found it very frustrating as I couldn't really modernise it, but was always scared of breaking it.....so was very happy for the boat to go to Chris, who was so much better able to give her the life she deserved.
I really don't wan't to go down the pros'n'cons of epoxy again, I am a BIG fan of epoxy....but it just isn't the total panacea for all restoration that some suggest. It might work in 1-5 years, but then you have a problem. But depends what you want. For some people, they just want 5 years of easy use and thats it.
For myself, I feel personally more drawn to the 'modernise' camp.....but have always admired those in the 'original' camp.
but the important thing is that we have room for both.
cheers
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
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IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
David H your post has worried me, I recently bought MR 2717 which until a year ago was still being raced regularly at Whitstable, I am refurbing not restoring as the boat looks strong. Just to add to this overall post I believe Bob Longthe previous owner of the boat had the correct attitude in that he kept updating the boat as the modern merlins adapted their rigs, the great thing,as I see it, about the Merlin as a class is that the arms race at the front of the fleet means that there are regular cheap castoffs for the boys at the back. So Bob was able on a limited budget to update the rig by deck-stepping (but not adding lowers as he said the hull won't take the strain) which also allows the useof a modern sail plan. Some of the traditionalists may not agree with this but I am sure it does help to keep an old hull racing if you get my drift
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
Suffolk Merlin,
yes, of course you are right, but only in some ways. The only 'technical' advantage of boat stepping is if you intend raking the rig 'significantly - but of course, as you rightly point out, you then have access to a far more reliable source of 2nd hand gear.
If I could get hold of 3199 again (my much missed one off 'Credit Card' design - you can read about that on the MR forum site) then I'd probably go for deck stepping as I guess by now the decks may need some tlc. But on 3025, to be honest,(and given our recent problems at Whitefriars) I think that may just be a risk too far so will leave the boat hog stepped.
Of course, with a smokers carrying weight so well and being sailed mainly in estuary/inland conditions - and then not in really strong breezes, the need to rake the rig is less than if the boat was being sailed on an open sea course, in breeze, by lightweights.
I would also hazzard a guess that should one turn up with a snazzy deck stepped raking rig that you'd attract the attentions of the handicapper, something that I am at present keen to avoid. So, I have been careful when sourcing gear for the boat, to ensure that there is no carbon and that the fittings, whilst modern (after all, a cleat has to cleat and uncleat) are not going to take me past the laready swinghing 88 that I have to sail off!!!!
D
yes, of course you are right, but only in some ways. The only 'technical' advantage of boat stepping is if you intend raking the rig 'significantly - but of course, as you rightly point out, you then have access to a far more reliable source of 2nd hand gear.
If I could get hold of 3199 again (my much missed one off 'Credit Card' design - you can read about that on the MR forum site) then I'd probably go for deck stepping as I guess by now the decks may need some tlc. But on 3025, to be honest,(and given our recent problems at Whitefriars) I think that may just be a risk too far so will leave the boat hog stepped.
Of course, with a smokers carrying weight so well and being sailed mainly in estuary/inland conditions - and then not in really strong breezes, the need to rake the rig is less than if the boat was being sailed on an open sea course, in breeze, by lightweights.
I would also hazzard a guess that should one turn up with a snazzy deck stepped raking rig that you'd attract the attentions of the handicapper, something that I am at present keen to avoid. So, I have been careful when sourcing gear for the boat, to ensure that there is no carbon and that the fittings, whilst modern (after all, a cleat has to cleat and uncleat) are not going to take me past the laready swinghing 88 that I have to sail off!!!!
D
David H
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
That is where I went wrong at Whitefriarsdavidh wrote:(after all, a cleat has to cleat and uncleat
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
Just a further though on the earlier thread: I've just looked on the MR 'for sale' section and there are sails for sale but they're kevlar - which takes us straight back to the handicap issue.
As this thread started on the 'ethics' in restoration, I think I'll defer to the wiser minds who've already said that this will be whatever you want it to be. What I want is for the Smokers to be strong enough to hold together when sailed hard, but to still be competitive when up against the real bandits found in CVRDA Indian territory.... Albacores, Tonics, Mirrors, single handed Firefly - not to mention the Seafire! ( and I'd promised myself that I'd not mention the seven letter S word).
But all this is just, in the end, personal preference. I love sailing the Merlin and have loved them since I started sailing at Hamble River way, way back when (as far back as when AG was not AG but a respected FD sailor). What is key is to have the boat you want, as you want...... and not falling apart around you or a hot shot crew!
D
As this thread started on the 'ethics' in restoration, I think I'll defer to the wiser minds who've already said that this will be whatever you want it to be. What I want is for the Smokers to be strong enough to hold together when sailed hard, but to still be competitive when up against the real bandits found in CVRDA Indian territory.... Albacores, Tonics, Mirrors, single handed Firefly - not to mention the Seafire! ( and I'd promised myself that I'd not mention the seven letter S word).
But all this is just, in the end, personal preference. I love sailing the Merlin and have loved them since I started sailing at Hamble River way, way back when (as far back as when AG was not AG but a respected FD sailor). What is key is to have the boat you want, as you want...... and not falling apart around you or a hot shot crew!
D
David H
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
Your mention of FDs reminded me of an interesting question of ethics for me.
Graham and I were talking at the week-end about the guy who had just bought Supercalifragi-whatever to find that he had two other wood FDs which he wanted to sell.... How Much....well there were suggestions of £350 a piece. Now both boats are stored inside, one of them is in full sailing condition (almost concours?) and the other needs minimal work - fittings on kind of thing.
Are these sensible prices? Annoyingly, they most probably are. Just no-one wants big, wooden, highly specialised, dedicated racing boats like these. So whatever they are 'worth' this is the kind of price that you can pay for this kind of boat. Now if it was a 12 ft clinker tideway - you would be quids in. I find it horrific that most probably the most valuable boat I have......lives in the mud in the river - I don't even insure it, but it would be easier to sell at twice the amount I would get for my Jollyboat
But it occurred to us, that if you wanted 'cheap' CVRDA sailing, it would be quite possible to buy one of these boats, sail it for 2-3 years - take no effort on its upkeep and then strip it of fittings and trailer - burn the rest and still come up with a profit, when you sold the bits.
This seems to me like such a crying shame and if someone did it.....would piss me off....from a 'classic-boat-ethics' point of view.
But.....it is the logical end to the 'You buy it....do what you want with it' logic we have discussed.
So I think we do all have some kind of responsibility to try and at least persuade owners away from this kind of attitude??
Is this an ethical question that we can even engage with?
eib
Graham and I were talking at the week-end about the guy who had just bought Supercalifragi-whatever to find that he had two other wood FDs which he wanted to sell.... How Much....well there were suggestions of £350 a piece. Now both boats are stored inside, one of them is in full sailing condition (almost concours?) and the other needs minimal work - fittings on kind of thing.
Are these sensible prices? Annoyingly, they most probably are. Just no-one wants big, wooden, highly specialised, dedicated racing boats like these. So whatever they are 'worth' this is the kind of price that you can pay for this kind of boat. Now if it was a 12 ft clinker tideway - you would be quids in. I find it horrific that most probably the most valuable boat I have......lives in the mud in the river - I don't even insure it, but it would be easier to sell at twice the amount I would get for my Jollyboat
But it occurred to us, that if you wanted 'cheap' CVRDA sailing, it would be quite possible to buy one of these boats, sail it for 2-3 years - take no effort on its upkeep and then strip it of fittings and trailer - burn the rest and still come up with a profit, when you sold the bits.
This seems to me like such a crying shame and if someone did it.....would piss me off....from a 'classic-boat-ethics' point of view.
But.....it is the logical end to the 'You buy it....do what you want with it' logic we have discussed.
So I think we do all have some kind of responsibility to try and at least persuade owners away from this kind of attitude??
Is this an ethical question that we can even engage with?
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
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Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
ed,
This is getting scary - yet again I'm in agreement with you!!
But, if you take your thoughts just stage further, then you open up a real can of worms as the debate then starts about 'priorities'! For example, the two FDs you refer to.... what if one of them was a 'Tiptree' Marine boat? Yes, it would be a shame to see it go BUT if someone was putting effort into that, then a more worthy cause could well get missed. Or, are we only going to look to save those boats that we think are worthy causes..... a tough call.
It's an issue that is close to me right now as I had an email just last week asking what I thought a part restored M14 should go for. I tried to be as honest and open as I could, without sounding either superior or patronising - but the bottom line on so many of these boats is that the answer is "a lot less than the seller thinks they are worth".
The FD is not a god example as the boat is at one end of the dinghy spectrum - gear for a FD has, in the main, to be for an FD. But then I sat down and thought about the Mirror14 and how much that would cost to get afloat - properly (ie, a fair job, neither a bodge job nor concours). Sails...well..... you'd want Marauder sails and something other than the old IYE stick (that came as standard on the Bell Boats) to put them on... a boom, for the M14 had a wooden plank, a decent set of foils and lots of fittings.
Many of these you could source from ebay/Fireball/Hornet/470 cast offs but even so, a budget of twice the 'real' value of the boat, it its current state, would not be far of the mark. So, I think your thoughts on how to get a few seasons cheap sailing are spot on but not with an fd, I think though you could do it with a Fireball/Hornet style of boat
D
This is getting scary - yet again I'm in agreement with you!!
But, if you take your thoughts just stage further, then you open up a real can of worms as the debate then starts about 'priorities'! For example, the two FDs you refer to.... what if one of them was a 'Tiptree' Marine boat? Yes, it would be a shame to see it go BUT if someone was putting effort into that, then a more worthy cause could well get missed. Or, are we only going to look to save those boats that we think are worthy causes..... a tough call.
It's an issue that is close to me right now as I had an email just last week asking what I thought a part restored M14 should go for. I tried to be as honest and open as I could, without sounding either superior or patronising - but the bottom line on so many of these boats is that the answer is "a lot less than the seller thinks they are worth".
The FD is not a god example as the boat is at one end of the dinghy spectrum - gear for a FD has, in the main, to be for an FD. But then I sat down and thought about the Mirror14 and how much that would cost to get afloat - properly (ie, a fair job, neither a bodge job nor concours). Sails...well..... you'd want Marauder sails and something other than the old IYE stick (that came as standard on the Bell Boats) to put them on... a boom, for the M14 had a wooden plank, a decent set of foils and lots of fittings.
Many of these you could source from ebay/Fireball/Hornet/470 cast offs but even so, a budget of twice the 'real' value of the boat, it its current state, would not be far of the mark. So, I think your thoughts on how to get a few seasons cheap sailing are spot on but not with an fd, I think though you could do it with a Fireball/Hornet style of boat
D
David H
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
Well, I would obviously much prefer them to find an old Fireball or Hornet or whatever....
but my point was that the very fact that the classes are bigger....the boats are smaller, more friendly and better known, makes them more 'sell-able' and less likely to be sold at these very low costs.
Whereas the FD, Jollyboat and few others seem to have next to no market at all and therefore potentially go for next to nothing.
or to put another slant on it. The difference between what it costs to re-build and what it is worth at the end is considerably bigger in these classes.
Does this make them less likely to be chosen as a re-build project?
or does the question of 'value' just not come into the equation, when you are looking for the next re-build as long as you can afford it?
eib
but my point was that the very fact that the classes are bigger....the boats are smaller, more friendly and better known, makes them more 'sell-able' and less likely to be sold at these very low costs.
Whereas the FD, Jollyboat and few others seem to have next to no market at all and therefore potentially go for next to nothing.
or to put another slant on it. The difference between what it costs to re-build and what it is worth at the end is considerably bigger in these classes.
Does this make them less likely to be chosen as a re-build project?
or does the question of 'value' just not come into the equation, when you are looking for the next re-build as long as you can afford it?
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
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Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
I have always lusted after a FD. I just wish I had the space time and size to own one. Just about sums up Eds point. I could be seriously tempted for £350.
Hang on Ive just reduced the fleet to two and now I am thinking of bidding on a mermaid and now talking about a FD
Hang on Ive just reduced the fleet to two and now I am thinking of bidding on a mermaid and now talking about a FD
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
For my part I too have lusted afer a FD, J, or similar. But I really would want somewhere to put it, and I don't think I could bring myself to leave it outside - particularly if I had spent some money bringing it up to scratch, or back to basics, whichever you prefer. So for me one woody at a time is plenty. It's not just a question of space, it's also got to be under cover, and modern homes just do not have the space in the garage for anything much over a Finn or Fireball, hence, in my view, their popularity.
Nick
Nick
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
If only I could find the money for the planned extension the architect sorted me a lovely 30+foot workshop(he wrote garage)clibb wrote:For my part I too have lusted afer a FD, J, or similar. But I really would want somewhere to put it, and I don't think I could bring myself to leave it outside - particularly if I had spent some money bringing it up to scratch, or back to basics, whichever you prefer. So for me one woody at a time is plenty. It's not just a question of space, it's also got to be under cover, and modern homes just do not have the space in the garage for anything much over a Finn or Fireball, hence, in my view, their popularity.
Nick
Any one know a very cheap bricklayer?
Hornet 191 Shoestring,
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
Hornet 595 Demon awaiting restoration
Hornet 610 Final Fling
Hornet 353
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Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
Roger,(and Clibb) how many lives do you have??Roger wrote:I have always lusted after a FD. I just wish I had the space time and size to own one. Just about sums up Eds point. I could be seriously tempted for £350.
Hang on Ive just reduced the fleet to two and now I am thinking of bidding on a mermaid and now talking about a FD
If you have seen the film "Little Miss Sunshine" (A wonderful slow moving comedy of observation of a dysfunctional family that genuinely functions as a family) you will recall Grandpa's advice to the young teenager to do as much as possible of what you can't do anymore but want to do when you are old, while you are young... Otherwise you will always regret it!
It absolutely is. This is the ethics of looking up houses with big gardens on google-earth and putting in for planning permision with the council to redevelop the site without consulting the neighbours. Gardens count as "brownfield sites," and unless your neighbours are on the ball there's nothing to stop developers exploiting this to strip towns of their suburban gardens for the sake of profit. Is this ethical?Ed wrote:Your mention of FDs reminded me of an interesting question of ethics for me.
...But it occurred to us, that if you wanted 'cheap' CVRDA sailing, it would be quite possible to buy one of these boats, sail it for 2-3 years - take no effort on its upkeep and then strip it of fittings and trailer - burn the rest and still come up with a profit, when you sold the bits.
This seems to me like such a crying shame and if someone did it.....would piss me off....from a 'classic-boat-ethics' point of view.
But.....it is the logical end to the 'You buy it....do what you want with it' logic we have discussed.
So I think we do all have some kind of responsibility to try and at least persuade owners away from this kind of attitude??
Is this an ethical question that we can even engage with?
eib
Like many profitable things in life, almost certainly not. It is simple asset stripping. Or worse, in the case of boats, Cannibalism! (I recall Garry I think suggested a way of getting a good coulor match on reformed Fairy hulls might be to transplant bits of one hull to another!!
At least that is medically ethical but only with the donor's consent (we don't all work for the DVLA )
When I see boats for sail on ebay it is not difficult to find "Boat Jumble" investors. Traders who buy up cheaper unwanted stuff, to dump the trash and scavenge and sell the useable bits. OK thats fine, its a living, but it sticks in the throat sometimes to see a genuinely good boat sold to a bidder whose history clearly marks them out as an ebay trader.
Michael Brigg
Re: 1948 International 14 restoration ethics.
Agreed
that is my main reason for not putting boats on ebay. I tend to be just a little fussy with who I sell to.
When I bought Iska off Laurie Smart, he made me visit UTSC three times to talk with members there, before they considered me worthy of buying her.
But then......the last two Jollyboats that I gave away....I only let the new owners have the 'hull' and told them to make a start on the hull....and that I would give them the rig and fittings when they needed them for the rest of restoration. Unfortunately neither have come back to me for the rest of the bits (yet!).
This I think is one of the problems with giving away boats. People don't really think through how much time and effort it is going to take and as their whole investment is just to come and get it.......they do.....but then they just loose faith....and normally the boat too.
eib
that is my main reason for not putting boats on ebay. I tend to be just a little fussy with who I sell to.
When I bought Iska off Laurie Smart, he made me visit UTSC three times to talk with members there, before they considered me worthy of buying her.
But then......the last two Jollyboats that I gave away....I only let the new owners have the 'hull' and told them to make a start on the hull....and that I would give them the rig and fittings when they needed them for the rest of restoration. Unfortunately neither have come back to me for the rest of the bits (yet!).
This I think is one of the problems with giving away boats. People don't really think through how much time and effort it is going to take and as their whole investment is just to come and get it.......they do.....but then they just loose faith....and normally the boat too.
eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
CVRDA
Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it