Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

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Mungo
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Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Mungo » Thu May 06, 2010 3:18 pm

Mind if I piggyback on the deck advice?

<don't mind if you do.....but why get the two confused? So have started your own thread>

I would like to redeck a jollyboat this summer and the old deck is attached with screws (see pic). Will it also be glued down? Any advice on removing 50+ year old soft metal screws without broadening my childrens expletive vocabulary? Will heat soften glue enough to remove old decks (I would like to use them as a template).
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deck2.jpg
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One of the floor strips (I assume they just strengthen the floor ) has popped loose in the middle. They appear to be held on with very short screws and no glue. Should they be glued to stop water getting into the hull ply where the screws penetrate?
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appreciate any advice

Mungo

Rupert
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Re: Wood stain options?

Post by Rupert » Thu May 06, 2010 3:57 pm

Mungo, if the screws are too far gone to take a screwdriver, you can always cut round them and take the decks off without the screws, and remove the screws with molegrips or the like after. Can't say I've ever had much luck getting decks off in one piece if they didn't want to. Some just seem to peel off, though.
Rupert

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Ed
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Ed » Thu May 06, 2010 7:32 pm

Hi Mungo,

sure that you realise that I could go on and on on this....and most probably will.

but a couple of thoughts.

Deck replacement on a Jollyboat is much harder than most dinghies, due the inner edge of decking not going over the edge with a cap, but rather being 'fitted' into the corner piece.

There is a proper way of doing this.....and an easy way.

The proper way is to cut the deck to fit........but its quite a job to do.....and most probably needs a jig and router as I think it would be very hard by eye and plain to get it right. Laurie Smart did it for me and it looked beut (before the ply gave up). the other way is to cut away a bit of the corner piece.....lay the deck over-size and then route it all down and off and replace with a capping piece lying at 45 deg across the top of the square corner piece, which is far more pragmatic way of doing it and incidentally is the way that all Ozzie jollyboats are made. So do look at the Ozzie plans on the website as they show this quite well I think.

The other thought for now is those floor-strakes - the strengthening strips.

They are a right pain. There is/was glue, but it was aerolite and has now pretty much given up. The screws are short....but long enough to provide a very effective way for water to get down into the inner veneers.

I just replaced mine last winter, but found that when i pulled out the strakes, I had various holes on/under the screws and in some cases this had caused rot that had gone quite a distance, meaning that I had to replace quite a bit of veneer. not a big issue as it was all under the strakes, but still annoying. in some cases this had gone through two veneers and/or even leaked through altogether. So take care. For years I tried to lift them enough to get some glue underneath, but I was never able to clean and dry them sufficiently for it to be a real repair. I think in retrospect I would of done better to cut out the section that was loose (with a nice long staggered cut) and then either put the bit back in after a good clean....or if you had to replace with new wood.

If you feel like replacing them all.....good for you....I did this in the end. Glad I did, but it was quite a hard job. You imagine they would be straight....but no, Fairey are too good for that, they have either been cut or possibly steamed to give a nice long gentle curve that follows the line of the gunwhale. I ended up having to put them in, in 3 parts to keep my 3 straight bits, within the gentle curve of the original.

But I guess I am saying ....take care....do really dig around because you can easily have much more rot under their than you suspected. Which ever route you decide to take, keep us in touch here and we can help.

cheers

eib

ps, if you get the chance send some details or photos that we can use on the Jollyboat blogsite as it desperately needs some new material.
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Mungo
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Mungo » Sun May 09, 2010 8:01 pm

Thanks for the replies

Please feel free to go on and on, I am completely boat dumb. The screws are actually in very good shape, I just think that after 50 years moving them is going to be difficult (would heat/cold loosen them). I'll give it a try, cutting around them is a good idea (why the forum is great, simple thing one wouldn't always think of). The corner pieces (gunwales?) also have screws, am I completely niave to assume they will unscrew and come off cleanly? I would really like the deck pieces as a template because the fit is very tight.... I guess I'll try taking screws out and see how loose the deck is. Despite the rather abused appearance it actually feels like it is tight.

The floor strakes ??? No idea I'll have to go look. I was just going to move the boat to the garage and it snowed yesterday and again today. Once the weather has stabilized (??) I'll take a good look at it. The boat hasn't seen water since at least 1970, probably earlier, and it has been in a barn since then sitting on stacks of old tires. It will either be a mummified boat or completely rotten.... It certainly feels and sounds solid but this is new territory for me. I'll keep a log or blog of what I do.

thanks again

mungo

Rupert
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Rupert » Sun May 09, 2010 10:25 pm

Even with the old decks as a template, you will need to cut a good 1/4 inch oversize and trim down to get a good finish.By the sound of Ed's post, it seems the JB has its own special problems, and it may be that getting the inner deck edge off cleanly could be the biggest help, and then you can trim down the outer edge. I tend to use a surform for this, but clever people know how to use a router. Must learn how...
Rupert

chris
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by chris » Mon May 10, 2010 8:55 am

Router
a profile template cutter is a staight bladed cutter that has a ball bearing fitting to it that is exactly the same diameter as the cutter. It will copy round a template made from say 5mm ply, ie the old deck, very acurately. BUT that assumes a few things. have the old decks distorted or shrunk in any way? are there any nicksor dents in the old edge because it will copy them unless you fill them. can you hold the old deck and new deck in firm close contact all along the edge (and you need a small space in between, eg some hardboard). It is quick and accurate but I have to say i've never done it for a deck. One slip and you have ruined the piece. It is a very good method trimming a new flooring on other people's hornets where the ply goes over the top of the centre board case and the slot needs revealing - job done in seconds.
BUT THERE'S AN EASIER WAY..
It is so much easier to remove the gunwall, glue on the ply oversize, trim to the edge of the hull with block plane (run the sole of the plane flat on the hull giving an accurate and clean edge to the ply without any hastle). If you are doing all the deck do it this way!
The only time I've fitted a new deck inside the gunwall/rubbing strake I cut a cardboard template, marked the ply, cut it by hand with a Japenese tennon saw (yes it will go round the bend, cuts fast and perfectly cleanly - no risk of splintering like a jig saw) then used a block plane and trial and error.

Garry R

Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Garry R » Mon May 10, 2010 11:13 am

Having done both I agree 100% with Chris. The gunwhales off approach is faster . You don't have to clean out the old ply to the correct depth from the outwhales either which takes an age as you may find that there are old screws etc to bugger up your chisel/plane or whatever. If the decks are that bad the likelihood is that so are the gunwhales but go carefully when taking them off to avoid cracking. As an advantage the gunwhales will have a nice pre-bend to them!!

chris
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by chris » Mon May 10, 2010 11:50 am

Actually I thought I was on the Ent-deck thread and I now see this about the JB so the Gunwalls are different I gather so if you have to refit inside them then don't start ripping bits off that shouldn't come off! Listen to Ed not me!

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Ed
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Ed » Wed May 12, 2010 3:40 pm

The gunwhale you can remove, to allow the deck to be trimmed and planed to size.....that isn't the problem.

it is the inwhale on the other side of the deck, which makes up the top edge which the side of tanks also fits into that is the problem. Have a look at photos and you will see what I mean. the corner piece has both decks and tank sides cut into it.

very tricky

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Mungo
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Mungo » Mon May 17, 2010 2:11 am

So,.... I have one small quarter panel of deck removed. 47 well sanded brass screws.... my beer consumption is going to bankrupt me.
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A kinda cool observation is that all the slots in the screws are aligned fore-aft (see pic). All of them (I did find one that is off by 2-3 degrees).... how did they do this??
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Remarkably the glue is still very good in places and I had to break the deck ply. The wood underneath was black and I was expecting the worst. However the wood is solid, poking it with an ice pick and there is no penetration with out a substantial stab. Is the black a preservative? it can be scraped off with effort (I guess it could be mold, but is is not on the underside of the deck ply). You can see the black in the picture of the gunwales. The side tanks appear to be reasonable painted red inside, small amount of paint peeling at the very bottom. The deck supports are very poorly constructed here.

Anyone familiar with jollyboat construction might be able to help. There is a strip of wood that lies right on the outside of the hull. It is not very hard, feels like pine, maybe spruce?, the outer strips are hard and I think mahogany (inner to the top of pic see pic). Is it a different wood? Any idea how to get the outer gunwales off?
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thanks

Mungo

Rupert
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Rupert » Mon May 17, 2010 8:36 am

Looking good, Mungo - a voyage of discovery. They got the screws lined up through care and practice, I think, rather than any mechanical device (apart from a screwdriver, of course!), but there may be a technique I've not come across - I assume you have to start each screw at the same angle.
Rupert

Garry R

Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Garry R » Mon May 17, 2010 9:13 am

I have to confess that I like to have the screws lined up too if possible. It also helps even if the screws are covered in filler you will know where the slot is for any removal in the future. Again a little bit of heat applied with a soldering iron on the head makes removat a whole lot easier in my experience. A rub on the threads with candle wax also makes screwing in easy and removal for the next restorer better.

Mungo
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Mungo » Mon May 17, 2010 3:48 pm

The screws are in general not hard to remove, a lot have been sanded and the slot is no longer deep making it difficult to get a good grip on them (they sure are soft). A good exercise in patience scraping paint to find them, then removing paint from the slot.... The screws appear to have a copper coating on the the threads that I at first thought was rotten mahogany but it is even on the screws in that other wood. A lubricant used in assembly? It might sound silly but they are nice screws quite different from what is sold in those awful big box stores.

Mungo

chris
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by chris » Mon May 17, 2010 4:20 pm

The copper colour is copper! Incertain conditions the zinc will leach out of the brass, brass being an alloy of copper and zinc so that just leaves the copper. But it will, in time, degrade the brass leaving it will little or no strength at all. Basically it's been acting as a little battery. I doubt if it's a lubricant or protective coat.

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Ed
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Re: Mouldy old screws in Jollyboat deck replacement

Post by Ed » Tue May 18, 2010 8:13 am

When you see the photos, you can easily see what the problem is with replacing the decks....

it is getting a good fit with the inner edge - the corner piece above the side-tank sides.

I don't think there is any magic 'way' to get the gunwhale or gunwhale rubbing strip off. Its a sod.

the plans will help you understand the problem:
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the correct way for this is going to simply be to dig out the rubbing strip and re-build the gunwhale....and shape the decks to fit the inwhale.

I put this at the harder end of deck replacement.....certainly much harder than the ent we have been talking about.

You might like to consider re-building in the Ozzie fashion: http://www.cvrda.org/jollyboat/lines/ajoa_3.htm

which if you use the 'alternative' method, should be visually no different to the Fairey way, but a lot easier to put together.

The problem for re-building is....that Fairey were without doubt the highest quality mass-produced boats ever built. Straight screws, curved bits just a few degrees off straight if they fitted better....etc etc, in fact all the best building techniques used in bespoke builds.

So keep the faith. It is looking good.

We had a new re-built Jollyboat turn up to Roadford Regatta. I will try and get some photos in a while to inspire you

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

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