What screws for stainless band on oak keel

share hints, tips and experiences
User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3472
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:36 pm

I would of loved to put brass keel band on the little tideway....but estimates of cost running from £70 to £110 for a 12ft boat just put me off.

So I have gone with some long strips of stainless. Not nearly so pretty....but this boat just isn't in the same league as most of the others and it's really just to piss around in on the river so stainless it is.

My question is this:

What screws should I use to attach it down?

I would prefer to use stainless.....but I seem to remember that you shouldn't use stainless in oak....is this right?

I could use brass....using bronze would again be a bit expensive. But personally I find brass screws in stainless not very pretty.

If there is a problem with stainless in oak....is it a visual problem or actually a structural one? not worried about the look as it is under paint anyway. Is it a theoretical problem.....or really a major issue?

All my feelings are to go with the stainless screws....I have them in stock and prefer the way they look....and they should be stronger. Brass isn't a big issue....just would prefer not.

Now......I am not trying to rush you....but if you have any thoughts....post now....as one way or another it is getting screwed down by the end of the night....or otherwise it will never get done by next w/end

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Rupert
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Post by Rupert » Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:10 pm

There is certainly a problem with normal steel and oak. Can't recall for stainless - it may make the oak go black. I'd have thought that once dipped in varnish any problem would be pretty slow to show, if at all. Maybe you could dip in duralac?!
Rupert

User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3472
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:20 pm

yes, I wondered about using duralac....

but if its only cosmetic, then I am not really worried anyway.

although as a complete about turn....I have realised that the s-steel screws I have are 1in which seems a bit long.....where as the brass are 5/8, which seems a better length.

mmmmmm.....

most probabaly doesn't make a ha-peny of difference anyway.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

chris
Posts: 2420
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:43 pm
Location: somerset

Post by chris » Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:04 am

'They' say you shouldn't use steel (iron) in oak because of the (tannic?)acid in oak will react with it causing degrading to the iron and the timber. But there are plenty of church doors over 500years old to suggest you might just get away with it. So staining would be the only real problem. One old way of staining oak was iron filings in vinegar and let a chemical reaction do the rest. (fuming it with amonia is easy too for an aged appearance, again it's all to do with chemistry so ask the chemists). Brewers who use oak barrels have to be careful about oak/iron.

'They' also say you shouldn't mix brass fittings with iron fittings because in certain (damp)conditions it will make a nice little battery and the electrolitic process will leach the zinc out of the brass leaving it with the strength of a stale bisquit.

However I don't know if any of the above applies to stainless!!!

Garry R
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Chapel Allerton Somerset

Post by Garry R » Wed Jul 06, 2005 9:07 am

How about a short length of brass band at the bow just until after the turn into the keel then continue with stainless. That way at least you would look quite cosmetic and reduce the cost. Both my Merlins 1728 and 111 have aluminium bands underneath which are in too good a nick to ditch (and costly) but brass at the bow as described.

User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3472
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:00 am

mmmmm.....well I used brass in the end. but more as I said because I had some in a nice size.

I did think about using brassband for the bow....but in the end thought I would just go with the stainless. It ain't that pretty.....but this boat just isn't that pretty anyway.

thanks everyone for input

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Rupert
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Post by Rupert » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:14 am

We'll power the club house at the next cvrda event from your degrading brass screws!
Do you remember the story of the yacht built to challenge for the America's cup in the 30's? She was steel framed with aluminium decks (can't remember the hull construction) fixed with brass screws...They added salt water, and she fell apart on the delivery voyage!
I think Duralac was invented after that...
Rupert

User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3472
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:27 pm

Or the aluminium decked fireflies!

Didn't Thornhill have one/two of those in collection.

I would love to have....or even see one of those!

I am hoping that brass/stainless does not have the same effect. I have certainly not noticed it before when I have had brass and stainless together.....whereas brass or stainless on an ali mast quickly shows deterioration.

You guys have all got me worried now......its too late....I am not turning her back over and replacing them all!!!.....well maybe over the winter!

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Rupert
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Post by Rupert » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:37 pm

I think the process is pretty slow with SS and brass, really.
I used to race against Firefly 114 in the 1970's and 80's on the Thames, and she still had the aluminium decks. Rumour had it that she had never sailed on the sea, which is why she was still in one piece. Difficult to imagine a shortage of waterproof ply these days, when one can buy WBP for £10 a sheet and have it last for years with no trouble. Ali decks didn't really look much different, barring colour, till you got up close.
I don't remember Andrew owning an ali decked firefly, though I could have missed it, of course!
Rupert

chris
Posts: 2420
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:43 pm
Location: somerset

Post by chris » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:45 pm

where do you get WBP for 10 quid then and how thick?

Garry R
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Chapel Allerton Somerset

Post by Garry R » Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:21 pm

I got 4.5mm WBP (3 ply) from Rembrand timber (8x4sheet) for about that cost and redecked the Merlin 1728 with it. You have to be careful sanding as the veneer isn't that thick. Colour wasn't great but after a bit of judicious staining (spirit based stain) it looked quite pretty. The sealers nowadays are good too - for that I used UCP but on the latest boat it is Eposeal from SP Systems and they are equally good I would say. For the whole varnish procedure I followed the varnish link on CVRDA and it worked for me. Bottom line on varnishing is - JENNYBRUSHES!!!! Get them cheap on ebay.

Rupert
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:40 pm
Location: Cotswold Water Park

Post by Rupert » Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:36 pm

Avon plywood in Bath does it for £9.64 a sheet for 3.6mm. I also go to M&W woodworking in Swindon, who were slightly more expensive, but it has 1 pretty good face and fewer voids than Wickes WBP, for instance. I used a 6'x2' sheet of Wickes WBP (12mm) to make the seat and runner for the ToY, which was £9.50 or so, inc VAT. I've coated with epoxy and ultravar, so should be OK. Sudden delamination could get me a bit wet!
Rupert

Brian E. Evans
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:31 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Brian E. Evans » Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:54 am

Noting Ed's plight in trying to find brass rub strip at a reasonable price promps me to give you this web site http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/ak ... index.html They have a selection of brass that is priced low enough that if you can get it past customs would be worth ordering.
Brian Evans.

User avatar
Ed
Site Admin
Posts: 3472
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:11 pm
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by Ed » Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:27 am

mmmmm.....never bought a cheap bit of wood that I felt happy about using at the end of the job...

thing about ply is that you don't really notice the difference for a few years....but after a while some ply just starts to split or delaminate, however good the coating is.

I spent (well South West Water spent....but that is another story....) best part of a couple of grand re-decking my Jollyboat.....I spent ages choosing 'what' ply we should use with the boat-builder and in the end we chose a 'gaboon' ply that had exactly the same golden colour of the original fairey boats. Looked totally fab....but....it was a bad choice....it is so soft that even sitting on the decks with jeans etc will leave marks from the studs. A trapeze hook just gouges out long dents. Don't have this problem with other jollyboats, with kaya or utile faced mahogany plies.

5 years later the ply is just giving up the ghost. Fantastic job.....looks great.....but now the ply is just splitting along the grain. Small hairline cracks....but they quickly gather dirt and when you try and varnish over them they turn quite black and look horrible. Anybody have any ideas on what is best way forwards? I am thinking I will try locally applying oxalic acid to cracks....then strip varnish...then maybe laminate a very thin finishing cloth over top. But my heart sinks when I consider this.....I hate this kind of finish....and only really want a nice warm varnish.

When you actually compare the internal cross-section of two bits of ply, you can quickly see why some costs 3 times as much as others. Robbins super-elite is solid Khaya....no voids...no soft crap and the top veneer is the same thickness as others. Remember it is the top layer which takes the majority of the loading and wear. Personally I have found Super-elite overkill and am quite happy with the 'elite' which is certainly lighter. But on the other hand the boats where I have used the super-elite have resulted in boats which look quiet beautiful and have been relatively bulletproof.

Anyway.....moral for me is that I would always buy the best wood I can afford.....but sometimes I know, Wickes is the best one can afford!

Incidentally.....having rather snobbishly said "never on my boat....."

I was in B&Q recently and they had some beech or birch faced ply in 9mm, 12mm and 18mm, which was quite incredible. quite light, straight and true and with a completely clean face, not one void, knot of fault in the whole 8x4 sheet. You couldn't exactly use it to deck.....and I was unsure of the glue used, although I think it was rated for external use.....but it was very nice.....and CHEAP....around £20 a sheet. Just need to think of a 'use'

Chris, what ply did you use on decks of MR507?

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it

Garry R
Posts: 855
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Chapel Allerton Somerset

Post by Garry R » Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:08 pm

B & Q had straight timber?!!! Must be a first or it slipped past their Quality Control people!!

Post Reply