Int 14 - mystery winch

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rme_01
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Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by rme_01 »

I have recently bought a classic 14 (K680), something I lusted after when I was in short trousers! She (Maelstrom) has been stored for the past 20 years but prior to that went through a period as a yacht tender (with outboard attached - aghh!) during which many of the fittings were removed. Most are fairly obvious however two that are left are puzzling me - the first is a winch mounted underneath the thwart with the handle socket on top, the second is the metal sheave underneath which may or may not be connected. I attach a picture - suggestions so far include centreboard winch, roller reefing, rig tensioner. Any ideas?
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K680-4.jpg
Rupert
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Rupert »

Are you certain the winch is original, and not part of the conversion to tender?

Having said that, I'm sure one of our 14 experts will come along and tell you exactly what it was for. Not something I'd expect to see on such a late (sort of - you know what I mean!) boat.
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Nessa »

Well, I have been pretty reliably told that K865 had a mast jack. I have no idea how this worked or really what it looked like, apart from someone sending me a pretty sketchy diagram, so I suppose it's possible this could have been connected to a winch.

It does look quite new in that photo though - what year is Maelstrom? Agamemnon is 1965 and has nothing as shiny as that.

I am by the way, thinking of taking the marauder out of the boat shed and swapping it for Aggie who currently resides two doors down. Then I can start work again. The question is, will he fit? Time to bite the bullet.

Have you been in touch with the classic 14 circuit racers? They are usually both helpful and knowledgeable.
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rme_01
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by rme_01 »

Thanks for that - a mast jack is an interesting thought; i sailed an old uffa fox one years ago which had a mast jack but that was operated unsurprisingly from the bottom of the mast! Maelstrom is a 1957 Fairey and i take your point about the winch looking a bit young

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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Keith66 »

In my box of bits i am sure i have a mast jack, its a square thread job made from bronze & tufnol. Think some of them had a sheave attached so they could be operated remotely.
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Ed
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Ed »

I am pretty sure this is Fairey Roller reefing kit.

had the same on my first Jollyboat, still have the winch handle somewhere.

But would need to look 1st hand to really confirm it.

you turned the winch which pulled a wire which went down to a sheave or on my first jollyboat a bit of stainless pipe that turned the wire towards the base of mast where it went up again to wrap around the front of the ali mast, which had a circular track on front of boom

As you turned the winch it span the boom and wrapped the sails around the boom. you then had a second gooseneck below the first, which held a pipe with a claw on the end of it to which the kicking strap was attached.

the boom was the reynolds tear-drop section which fitted into the 'claw' holding it in place.

the boom of course had round hole and a round goosneck that fitted it.

to make it work, you had to undo the main halyard winch, but hold the tension, or the sail came down, someone else then had to turn the reefing winch which would wrap the sail around the boom, whilst the main halyard was released in conjunction with it.

It was a clever system.....and like many Fairey things - very advanced for its time

but it didn't work very well.....

so people removed it or part of it or stopped using it.....

but I am pretty sure that is what it is.....more photos may confirm or deny it

the top of the winch looks very standard. I have seen them like this so they stand proud of the thwart. On my first Jollyboat it was kind of the other way up and the winch went through a hole in the thwart, so more of it was below the thwart.

Not sure how original it looks....it may be that the owner could make it work and replaced the winch when the first one broke....which they did....also possible that the sheave replaced the silly pipe system that our Jollyboat had.

Mast jacks are totally different and I have had a few masts with those too, but they just do what they say, they are a screw-jack on the bottom of the mast which allows the rig to be tensioned by turning the screw and lifting the whole mast.

Interesting that some of these had could be remotely tensioned. I have never seen that, but no reason why not!

Again Fairey Jollyboats had these on their wood masts and some early ali masts too.

Iolanthe Int14 K556 1949 another Fairey Boat, didn't have any of these bits, but mast had been modernised anyway.

cheers

eib
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Mungo
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Mungo »

not sure it's helpful but here's a picture of a jollyboat roller winch removed. It was located in my boat exactly as in the picture at the start of this thread. I don't have a winch handle (or a boom for that matter)

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3067.jpg

here's the claw

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3066.jpg

both are in remarkably good condition so maybe they age well. The centreboard winch aged less well...
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Ed »

that is the kit....

including what looks like some of the damn silly 'pipe'.

Interesting Mungo......that you seem to have all the correct 'Fairey Marine' kit........but the decks on your boat 'don't' look quite right for original Fairey build.

I have always presumed that your boat was a Fairey shell that was then fitted out at home or by another boat-builder. This was very common, especially for boats going abroad.

I guess it was possible to buy the 'shell' and then all the 'fittings' and then put it together yourself.

I really must get some of these photos onto the Jollyboat Blogsite, which is terribly out of date. Would you be up for putting together a bit for the blogsite?

cheers

eib
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alan williams
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by alan williams »

Hi
Ed's correct it's a roller reefing winch. When Pat and I had Audacity INT732 she had two of these winches, one worked the haliyard and the other rotated the boom. You had to turn them in opposite directions to reef. We tried them out once, from full rig to half main in about 10 sec's. Audacity also had a jib furler but that was a drum.
Cheers Al
rme_01
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by rme_01 »

looks like mystery solved so either it goes (probably) or the hunt is on for the relevant bits for the other end. Pity really as I still think it would make a useful winch with a bit of tackle for a weighted board! Incidentally does anyone know exactly when the 14's abandoned the 60lb weighted board mentioned in the UF books?

Thanks for your help

Robert
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Ed »

Problem is really with the auto-reefer, is that to work it would really need a set of 1950s sails, it just wouldn't work with a modern cut sail or modern materials.

So....yes, I think I would take it out.

I am sure someone will say when the heavy boards stopped.

If not, I will look up in Int14 book.

It may not of been a 'rule' in the legal sense....just in Uffa's mind of what it 'had to be' at the time.

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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by alan williams »

Hi Ed
I ment to mention that the Shark has the same winches set into the mast as haliyard winches. As regards the 14 you also had a special kicking strap arangement and the boom was tapered on Audacity to allow it to lift on reefing. We threw all this away when we updated the boat with an entire new rig, with trapeze, stiffer modern centerboard, stiffend up the centerboard case , fitted modern alloy rudder stock, new rudder with a modern deep spitfire wing shape with ventialation plates ( which we never used in fleet racing) and another new rudder which we did use which came off a hornet, cut down the transom put in a spinnaker shute,center mainsheet and generally improved her with all modern equipment except we left in the tube bailers. We really pimped her up. Jeremy Putney and the front of the fleet racers complimented on her saying we had done a really good job, but some of the older 14 sailors at the time made comments as to what David Miles (Designer ) would have said if he saw the boat. Some did not like the fact that we put the name on the transom in large Comic sans script and that the rudder stock split the name which then read Auda City which we thought was cool. The boat was far easier to handle after all the mods and was as expected far quicker on all points of sailing. If you want to improve a boat improve it don't get stuck in the classic car rut of having to use the right brass fittings or only brass,gun metal screws. However I would hate to see a sixties 14 with carbon rig kevlar,carbon,mylar sails and an asymetric and two wires.
Cheers Al
Last edited by alan williams on Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:31 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Michael Brigg
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Michael Brigg »

I would have thought that to preserve the provenance of a boat such as this you would leave a fitting like this and blank off the end bits so that it doesnt get in the way (assuming you don't want to use it.) It is surely an interesting part of the boat's history that has to stay on board as one of it's endearing features.

Rolling a "modern" (presumably in this boat Terylene) main can be made to work OK but is difficult due to the fullness of the sail. I sailed reduce rig fireflies in Junior Fortnight at itchenor (The Bantam Cock trophy.)

The pintles had reduced sails cut, while the rest of us rolled with the reefing claw (which works only if you have it attached to a second gooseneck, or stuck into the luff groove if it is a rotating mast as were all fireflies in those days. The alternative reefing vang is a peice of toe stap webbin, bolted into the boom and wrapped into the sail.

Percieved wisdom was to wrap loose battens in with each turn, to take up the shape of the sail. This, if done well also allowed you to slightly alter the cut shape of the resulting reefed main.
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Michael Brigg »

Ed wrote:that is the kit....

I have always presumed that your boat was a Fairey shell that was then fitted out at home or by another boat-builder. This was very common, especially for boats going abroad.

I guess it was possible to buy the 'shell' and then all the 'fittings' and then put it together yourself.
Photo link from the firefly site!

http://s1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff4 ... g&newest=1
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Re: Int 14 - mystery winch

Post by Mungo »

getting off topic....

Ed if you want pics for the blogsite just take them off photobucket everything there is open access. I am so naive I have no idea what people might find interesting.

I have something somewhere to do with my boat that makes me think it is a fairey boat (a sail bag or rope bag or some cotton bag), but maybe that came with the hull. What is different about the decks? I know some of the fittings are different (wide metal bar thing at the stern). there is a close relative of my boat in Montreal (where mine came from originally) be interesting to know if it is equipped similar to mine (Scott?). He may even know the history of his boat
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