annual barrage of naive questions

[Mungo]

Hi All

I am sorting out bits associated with my jollyboat sail bag and associated bits and pieces. Appreciate some help with what they are. If you have no time for someone with no boat knowledge stop here.....

First, is there a proper way to fold sails? The main sail and spinnaker are Ok but the jib has a wire that is already a bit of a corkscrew. Is there a proper way ?

The sails are interesting (at least to me). Two sets, the original and replacements. They are lying on top of each other in the pic old ones on top. The jib on the old set is considerably smaller than the newer sails. Shame they are stained as they are in quite good shape.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3706.jpg

From the sails I assume my boat is from 1957

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3707.jpg

the spinnaker is more recent, about the time my Dad bought the boat. Would spinnakers by made for competitions? Kind of an interesting bit of history stamped on that sail. It isn't the shape I expected, more like a big bag of very light material.

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3709.jpg

finally (be patient...) a collection of sheets, lines, ropes??? anyone willing to identify them for me?

I assume jib sheet (excuse the toes)

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3716.jpg

main sheet? where does it attach? one pulley (block?) to the boom and one to the traveller (hoop at stern)?

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3714.jpg

another line ??

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3715.jpg

and another, distinctive metal knob on one end

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3711.jpg

I assume trapeze handles?

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3717.jpg

what would the straps be for? there are 4 of them, they were with the trapeze handles

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3718.jpg

spinnaker lines? similar connections as on the spinnaker pole

http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3710.jpg

appreciate any input...

and thanks for being patient

Mungo

[Nigel]

3711 looks like your kicker. There should be a keyhole shaped hole inder the boom about 2-3 ft from the gooseneck for it to fit into.

[kfz]

Mungo,
Sails may be cleanable, what is the staining. Milldew and rust are probably hardest to remove.

Kicker yourve identified

not quite sure why you have snap shackle on the jib sheet though it looks like a suitable thickness. Not very long though. Possible an old jib sheet used as painter???

Yes you mainsheet looks straight forward the block with the open bitter end goes on the boat and theblock with the loop end goes on the boom. Looks like you have a sensible stopper knot on there.

Kev

[Mungo]

Thank you both

the kicker is decidedly newer blocks, plastic pulley wheels, all others are tufnol. I don't have a boom so.... I have an old bent broken mast (barn collapsed on it) and everything below deck level is a mystery to me. Far more complicated than I would have thought.

the jib sheet, maybe it isn't. I assumed so because two ropes same length and both long and substantial. The brass or bronze fittings just feel nice... hard to explain.

that sensible knot on the main sheet has nothing to do with me.

the sails have brown stains, likely not rust as they are very dispersed, no mildew, maybe it is just water stains. The old ones are pretty soft, the new ones (40 years old) are quite crisp. Not sure why sails came from the UK, surely someone in North America could make sails in the 60's. Ok maybe not very well but still...

It's a bit of a time warp, nothing has been touched since the late 60's maybe very early 70's. Found the receipt for the boat, $62 in December 1965. Dad got the jollyboat and Mom got the red GT6. Dad learned how to swim, Mom was pretty popular.... Then again the GT6 is long gone and the jollyboat is still here

[Ed]

Some quick thoughts:

3706 the sails.

Hard to tell from the photo and measurements would be needed to confirm, but there were 3 size of jib for the Jollyboat. A storm jib, a normal jib (52sqft) and a genoa (72ft). Looking at it, I would hazard a guess that you have here the jib and genoa. You will most probably want to use the jib mostly. The genoa is a handful and it is hard to get the boat to sail very close to wind with it. If you look on the Jollyboat site, there will be a sail plan with full measurements.

3707 - date of 1957

Well, you can only really tell that a set of sails were made for the boat in 1957. If these were the first set, then that would give the age....but it would be quite common for the first set to be replaced quite quickly. Not sure, I might be able to work out when J203 was built. I admit it is a tight timespan anyway. But certainly between 1954 and 1957. Lets be honest, I would think it most probably took them 3 years to build 200 shells, so I guess 1957 and this being the first set of sails seems a fair bet.

3709 - 1965 worlds
Yup, I think I have a set of sails downstairs with measurers stamps for this worlds....or maybe it was for the Canada one (Montreal?)...which I think was the last?? could look all this up, but maybe on Jollyboat site. It may well of been made for the worlds, but would of got the stamp once it was measured anyway, whether new or old. As for shape.....see the recent thread about the Pegasus kite, for more discussion on this very point.

3716 jib sheets
it was common to use those big bronze quick release hooks....but quite lethal. If you got one of those on the head, you really knew about it! I would just take off and replace with knots.

3714 - main sheet
Jollyboat mains are big.....and need lots of purchase....but that is still quite a healthy main with a 4:1 purchase. You can use it, but you do end up with a very long mainsheet. I normally find that a 1:3 is ample. You are right about connecting it. One of the blocks will have a swivel and the other not. If both have swivel it get tangled.

3715 - another sheet
My guess here is that you have two mainsheets: the 1:4 for when it is blowy....and this one a 1:2 for light winds. Pretty commonplace and rather sensible. But if this is so, you are missing one block, or maybe they used the boom block from the big-wind mainsheet?

3711 - kicker
Well this is the kicker.....but this could do with quite a bit of beefing up, it doesn't look really up to the job of holding the main down too well. The original boom was just a bit of reynolds mast section and woefully underspecced, hence they did break rather often. Normally by using that 1:4 mainsheet to pull some tension into the rig, then taking up the slack with the kicker, but forgetting to let it off a bit before bearing away in a blow. Don't arf go with a bang too.

3717 - harness lines
Yes, harness lines. Please don't use these. They won't work with a modern harness anyway. You need one of the old canvas nappy harnesses with a catch on the front. I do have one, but have never dared use it. Best to replace, when you replace all the other rigging with a modern 'ring on the wire' and 'hook on the harness'.

3718 - sail straps?
Could be all sorts of things, but I reckon they are just simple sail-straps, I use some identical to this.

4218 - Kite sheets
Yup, that's what these are....I think, but I don't think they would of been attached to the kite pole. The only running rigging the pole would of had is a up and downhaul, which most probably connects via a hook to the middle of the pole with a horrible open hook at either end? This looks too long for up/down haul, hence presumption that they are sheets. Those clips were common, but pretty horrible to use. I would just replace with a nice simple knot or use loop-through & bobble technique.


How is it going?? do give us another update on progress.

[Mungo]

I will send in new pics as I progress. I have just switched the garage from winter to summer mode and can now access the boat. Decks should be done this summer and all should be reassembled this year. I find myself confounded by simple problems. I simply do not have the background or experience in measuring and cutting etc. Sounds like simple problems but sure can leave me baffled. I proceed slowly so I don't really screw something up.

The lower decks (below the gunwales) are rotten and replacing them is really quite complicated (makes decks look simple). The old ones do not come off anywhere near complete so I have no template. I tried clamping ply on top and using a compass tracing the hull line and the outer gunwale line. I cut and apparently what I traced was some other boat.... There is a trick in there somewhere to reduce a 4X8 sheet of ply to graceful 3 inch wide arcs... that actually fit. Whoever designed jollyboat gunwales was sadistic.

[Ed]

Yes....agreed.

Fairey would of had templates for all these bits and trying to work it out is as you say ....a nightmare.

It is of course easier (much easier!) if you take the gunwhale strip off entirely. Then you only have to get the inner edge right and you can plane down the outer edge. This also makes laying the decks much easier.

It is true that you would then have to have an inner and outer gunwhale (or false gunwhale and capping?) . I know that the original boats had a one piece gunwhale with a rabit top and bottom for the top deck and bottom. But I think trying to duplicate this....or cut the decks to fit inside the gunwhale are both going to drive you mad. So personally, I would cut off the the outer half of the gunwhale, most probably with a router. fit decks, plane to fit, then replace the capping.

Of course this is a problem if you don't want to loose the original gunwhale.....

I thought long and hard about this, when my decks were redone (not by me) and the boatbuilder (Laurie Smart) routed out the top half of the outer gunwhale to make fitting the decks easier and then replaced the top half of the gunwhale. A very good way of making the job much easier. I have never known anyone to notice. I can hardly see it myself.

If this is clear.....good....

if not look at some of the plans on the jollyboat site and see how it works. If you also look at the Ozzie plans, you will see that they also put a capping on the inner edge of decks, which again makes that side of it much easier.

For my money, I would replace both gunwhale and inner edge of decking using caps. It will be so much easier and you can then make them match too.

Take more photos and we can help more I am sure.

cheers

eib

[kfz]

Mungo,

Do you mind if I join your naive question thread. Can someone tell me what this horn cleat is for? I have two in the boat which seemed to have been made redundent at some point by nylon fittings. Wonder what the theory is behind it. Is supposed to go vertically and perform a duel function as a hook?

Kev


R0012316 by lsc2006, on Flickr

[PaulM]

Can I add a small question which lots of people can probably answer? I'm removing some redundant spinnaker fittings fron an alloy mast and some of the s/s panhead screws are seized with corrosion - will penetrating oil do any good, or pouring boiling water on it, or what? The screws are good but I just can't shift them, even with an impact driver....

Paul

[kfz]

Paul,
Your on the right lines with the heat. If its safe to use heat (no ropes or plastic fittings) then I'd use the heat gun and the impact, heat it, let it cool, repeat a few times. The alloy expands faster than the steel.

Dont forget if your using the impact is to make sure its on something hard and the mast springyness inst absorbing the shock.

Kev

[Ed]

heat might do it....

but personally I have had very limited success in this situation. You think the s/s screw is OK....and it looks it....but when you put any pressure on it sheers and then shows the telltale evidence of decay. But heat might well do it, so good luck.

as for the cleat, they are used all over the place on old dinghies, mainly for halyards and plate lifts.

I have seen them used both ways up....so never been sure which way they should go. In experience they seem to go best with the point up, so if the rope lies from above the pressure goes around the crook and then the rope binds against itself as it comes back and under the cleat.

I have seen them used so the crook carries the loop of the gathered falls of rope, but this seems to not work so well.

The original CVRDA nats prizes were 4 of these cleats on mahogany blocks. Exactly like this.

cheers

eib

[PeterV]

Cleats like that are supposed to be jammers. The rope should pass round the round horn first then jam under the straight one.

[Mungo]

For Ed, not new pics but my progress so far

as found http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... G_3002.jpg

as is http://i613.photobucket.com/albums/tt21 ... CN0633.jpg

slowly getting somewhere

Mungo

[JimC]

Cleats like that are supposed to be jammers. The rope should pass round the round horn first then jam under the straight one.

Also good for swinging up the ropes - with the open hook downwards you can use it as a block so pull the halyard horizontally or even upwards. Then when you've got it as tight as possible you take a turn roundto lock in position, then finish off as normal.

[kfz]

Thanks Guys, that makes sense. Looking back it looks as though they where both (the is a pair) fastened to the side of the centrboard case. and used as main and jib halyards. Never struck me a good idea of putting the main rig tension onto the case. In fact thinking about it more probably explains why the case was cracked.

So the pointy end should point at the load and the idea is too haul on the halyard round the roundy end and jam it under the pointy end.

Kev