Another G4 Question

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Rich
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Another G4 Question

Post by Rich »

I am trying to get my aged Phantom back on the water after a couple of years away from sailing. I have stripped the top decks and would like to have a try with G4 having never used it before. However the decks are very patchy in colour and I would like to give them a coat of dark stain first, but not sure if this would stop the G4 curing. I guess the stain would have about a week to dry before I was ready for the G4.

Anyone tried this before or is it a definite no no?
Rich
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Ed
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Ed »

Certainly not (imho) a definite 'no-no'....I would go gently, let it dry out well and hope for the best...I think it is unlikely to give any immediate problem and I would do it without too much worry.

In fact come to think of it, I can't think of many bits of ply that I havn't given some amount of stain first, before primer, so I guess if/when I have used G4, it would of been over stain.

If you had a problem, I think it would only raise it's head in a year or two, if it in any way spoiled the adhesion between the G4 and the wood. But I think you would be unlucky for this to happen.

Two thoughts though....

first is that G4 is quite a dark primer anyway, not at all like a single pack poly like the old Blakes woodseal, so there will be some natural darkening anyway.

second is that, personally.....in my very humble opininon...I really don't like the water based stains, nor the varnish stains (just looks like someone has sturred some poo in with the varnish), but only the spirit based dyes like Colron and Rustins. You can mix them, and dilute them with white spirit and can slowly work up the colour to try and fill patches....but be very careful, doing it 'badly' can often look worse than doing nothing.

To be honest, often just a single dose of a red-mahogany or a mix between the red and the orange (can't remember the name, but there is a 'black', 'Red', 'Orange' and 'Yellow' and I tend to mix as required), works best.

Another possible route is this stuff:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/HG-Meubeline-Da ... B000IU3VW6

there is one for 'dark' and one for 'light' wood and it certainly brings back colour to faded woods nicely. I know Neil has also used it....any others had sucsess? Again, to the best of my knowledge there is no problem with overcoating with G4.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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chris
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by chris »

I agree that staining rarely achieves an improvement to be happy with. It depends just what the discolouration you mention is but a safer thing to try first may be oxalic acid, wood bleach or a proprietary wood cleanser/restorer. This will get dark patches out and restore the colour back to what it was. ( or perhaps lighter). Usually, but not always, works wonders.
Rich
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Rich »

Thanks for the advice. I have a couple of tins of Colron oil based stain, one is Deep Mahogany which from memory is quite red in colour and Peruvian Mahogany which is a very dark brown and so will probably have a go with one of these. Picture below taken as she is today. I'm not to fussed about the end appearance as I'd rather go sailing than spend weekends in the garage endlessly sanding, just didn't want to stain if it is known to react with the G4.

Image

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Ed
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Ed »

Looking at that.....can't see any obvious immediate reasons to 'stain'....

I would just sand back, scrub it down with weak oxalic acid or one of the cleaners (Used to recommend Netrol, but had some very bad experiences with new recipe version), then water-detergent and re-assess.

If necessary, just go over the whole boat with some diluted Colron, once. don't go back, don't try and fill patches, then go ahead with G4

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Rich
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Rich »

Thanks Ed, I think I've gone as far I'm going to with the sanding. I'm sure someone with skilled hands and a belt sander could probably get the decks pristine but that person isn't me.

I'll get busy with the colron this week and will ensure it's well dried before applying the G4.

Cheers
Rich
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Ed
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Ed »

A belt-sander would ruin it! :-(

but OK, I think I see your situation now.....I hate to tell you this, but you are only half way with getting the old varnish off.

If you put stain down on this, you will have a real mess as it will adhere to some parts, (where wood is) but not others (where varnish is). I think you have two options;

Option 1:

Hey, its sunny, I want to go sailing....just wap on some varnish and go sailing. Won't look pretty but you will be on the water. Safe option is to use a trad varnish that won't be upset by some of the varnish that is still on wood and in grain. In my experience, you should be OK with putting G4 down on this, but many here will say this could be dodgy. You have half-sanded, thereby breaking surface of old varnish and this may react to a new varnish put down on top.

Option 2:
I wanna go sailing, but I want it to look good too.....OK, come to terms with fact you have more varnish to get off the ply. From this stage you have two options: first elbow greese and lots of sandpaper (not sander, - by hand, with the grain), or and I would do this. Striper and green scouring pad; paint it on, leave it, you will see bubbling even where you thought there was no varnish, and then scrub along grain with a scouring pad. Then wash and light sand with 180grit or so, then you will be ready for the G4.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
Rich
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Rich »

I hear what you say ED and you are of course correct.

The marks that are left are varnish and stain that is in the grain. I have already had two goes with the chemical painstripper and shavehook plus much sanding which has removed the surface varnish but not the stuff in the grain. I'm not fussed about pretty, I did that once before on this boat and it didn't last and so now I just want get back on the water as soon as poss. If nothing else I suppose it will end up as a good example of what NOT to do with stain and G4 :lol:

Keep you posted
Rich
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Rich »

Following all the usefull advice received, I just thought I'd give an update as to how I got on with my first use of G4.

As already mentiond by others the great plus with G4 is the speed with which you can build up a coating. I bought a litre of the stuff which I split into two 500ml lots, 3 coats to the top decks of the Phantom used 1x 500ml lot. My preference would probably have been for 4 coats but I wanted to save the second 500ml for use on another boat. The fact that G4 doesn't have much flow out mean't I didn't end up with a finish that I would consider acceptable on it's own. Maybe with a bit more experience this could be done, the finish certainly improved as the coats went on but I can't help wondering whether the addition of some cellulose thinners to the final coat would have given a better finish, however as this was my first attempt with the product I wasn't brave enough to try it. I applied the G4 with a brush but still ended with quite a dimpled finish, probably due to poor technique on my part. Didn't notice the fumes so much at the time of application but certainly did afterwards though it didn't help that I forgot to wear gloves.

I left the G4 to cure for 10 days and then cut it back with 240g wet & dry followed by 3 coats of Epifanes varnish. The cheap B&Q yacht varnish I had previously used was still sound on the side tanks and so these had a gentle rub down followed by a quck coat of Epifanes. Time will tell how long the final finish will last, but based on experiences so far I would definitely use G4 again.

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Rich
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Ed
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Ed »

You can get G4 to flow out, but you need the diluent.

I wouldn't use a cellulose thinner but the proper G4 thinner.

I would go as far as to say I reckon the stuff is almost impossible to use without some thinners. You may well be OK with a new can, but it seems to naturally thicken up, whether used/opened or not. Well it is for me as I normally apply with a roller anyway, where you really have got to thin it a bit.

But great job. I am sure it will last years. The only problem I have had with this type of coating lay-up has been lack of adhesion between the hard G4 and the softer varnish top-coat, but it sounds like you did exactly the right thing with letting it harden and sanding it back. I don't think you will have a problem.

Well done.

eib
Ed Bremner
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Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
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kfz
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by kfz »

Nice job. Looks good......
Rupert
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Rupert »

It does look excellent.

Nessa is putting on a class for woodie Phantoms at the cvrda Nats - are you involved with that at all?
Rupert
Rich
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Rich »

Rupert wrote: Nessa is putting on a class for woodie Phantoms at the cvrda Nats - are you involved with that at all?
Hi Rupert, no not involved with the Nats but will bear it in mind for the future.

Just worked it out, the last time I was in a boat was nearly 3 years ago (Aug 2010) and so I need to learn to sail again and hope that the knees ect are still up to it, also I have very little experience with the Phantom and so will need to go through that learning curve.

A big thumbs up to Nessa & the CVRDA for organising the class start, the CVRDA is the spiritural home of old woodie Phants even if they don't meet the normal qualification criteria :D
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Ed
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Re: Another G4 Question

Post by Ed »

A big thumbs up to Nessa & the CVRDA for organising the class start, the CVRDA is the spiritural home of old woodie Phants even if they don't meet the normal qualification criteria
Might get shot for it......but totally agree with you.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
Bathurst Whiff - looking for someone to love it
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