Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

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pburrows
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Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by pburrows » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:00 am

If possible I'd like to see what you guys think I should do next. I've gone from wood coverd on glass and resin to near bare wood in the "shoulders" of the boat (can someone tell me what those are called). See the next 2 images

Before
Image

Currently like this:
Image

Image

It looks like pine wood to me. Could this be correct? Are dinghies made from pine?? Surely not.

I think the wood has been covered with poly resin for years and is hard to strip it off but I'm getting there.

The hull now flexes a tiny bit with hard thumb pressure, where I have removed the glass that was sticking the hull to the wood. So I'm a bit unsure what do do next.

Thanks all
Last edited by pburrows on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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alan williams
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by alan williams » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:16 am

Hi Phil
The term is knees. thenext step I would do is to run epoxy fillets down the sides of the knees. However I expect Ed or Rupert will be on the site soon and they have greater experience than I have on these things. Wood is wide grained and I suspect is ash.
Regards Al

pburrows
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by pburrows » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:23 am

Kind of what I thought. Do you think Epoxy Fillets would keep it strong enough and provide a strong enough bond of wood to the GRP hull? I don't really want to cover it back up with glass again.

The wood is starting to look quite pale as I get the old poly off it. How would you go about re-treating/covering the wood?
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Rupert
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by Rupert » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:49 pm

Quite chunky epoxy fillets should do it, and will grip better than the glass tape did, I'd think. If you use a brown filler to thicken the epoxy then it will look fine, I'm sure.

I expect the wood is ash, but whatever it is, it has survived this long is pretty good nick, so should be good for a while yet!

Have you done filleting before?
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Ed
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by Ed » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:54 pm

Not sure its ash...it may be, but ash normally has lots of smaller grain markings. This looks to me like red pine or something, but you would have to have a good look once the varnish was off to be sure.

If worried try http://www.wood-database.com/

but fillets with a brown wood fibre would look OK. Wouldn't bother to try and re-stain, just clear off the old varnish and fix it then reapply varnish.

it will all look fine in very little time. Fillets look better and much stronger than horrible glass-rovings.

cheers

eib
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by Obscured by clouds » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:59 pm

Received wisdom form a rebuilder of N18's is that trying to get anything to bond with old polyester/glass is a bit hit and miss, no matter how well you grind and fillet, the bond still is somewhat inadequate and will eventually spalt off - which indeed is what happened with a new bulkhead I bonded in when I rebuilt the Soling.

When rebuilding the N18 I bonded and filleted the wooden knees to the inner wooden gunwhale with epoxy, but where the knees came into contact with the GRP I bonded and filletted with sikaflex.

Whether this is the best or right way to do it remains to be seen as the project is still ongoing. however this is the way the Racing 18's are put together so as far as I'm concerned that's what I'll continue doing.
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Mikey
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by Mikey » Thu Jun 13, 2013 4:54 pm

Definitely not ash - agree with Ed - pine/spruce.

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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by chris » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:06 pm

Cedar, larch?

pburrows
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by pburrows » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:51 pm

Thanks guys. Just got back in from this evenings stripping/rubbing session. Using coloron furniture stripper to help take off coating on the wood. It's a pig of a job but slowly getting there. When I've done all the knees I'll add some pictures.

Regarding filleting, I've never done this. I don't even know what products I will need to do it. I've seen some examples on the web. I'm not going to be ready to start this stage for another week.

Here's a question.... Would you fillet first or paint white epoxy undercoat to the inside of the hull before adding fillets??
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by Rupert » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:14 pm

I'd fillet first, otherwise the danger is the epoxy will just pull the paint off.

Having said that, I've not tried over epoxy paint. In fact, I'm not quite sure what epoxy paint is? I used epoxy coal-tar paint on the bilges of a steel yacht once, but I'm not sure I'd use that on a dinghy!
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by Mikey » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:47 am

Definitely fillet first.

pburrows
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by pburrows » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:12 am

Where's the best place to get the materials to make fillets? Never done it before, not 100% sure how to go about researching this!
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by pburrows » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:16 am

Rupert wrote:Having said that, I've not tried over epoxy paint. In fact, I'm not quite sure what epoxy paint is?
Hi Rupert, I have no idea either, it was something that Ed suggested. What sort of paint would you use to re-paint the inside of an old GRP hull? Dulux Gloss?
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by Ed » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:52 am

Well, I recommended using an epoxy paint (primer) on the hull.....but not sure if I would put it under the fillets.

You would want to really sand the gfp either way, so it would get messed up. I think I would paint afterwards.

The Epoxy primer I use is Jotun Penguard. It is cheap, easy to use and works well:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOTUN-INDUSTR ... 1e6ced89b4

This isn't the guys I normally buy from (who's name I forget and are close to Rupert I think?), but at around £35-50 for 5litres it is good stuff, although you will need to buy the correct diluent as well.

There are others, Blakes do one as well, but it is about £30 a litre.

For making the fillets, you need some epoxy resin and a filler of your choice. The fillers range in hardness/weight from Silica which is rock-hard, very strong and hard to sand, through wood-fibres, which come in either brown/cream colour and is strongish and OK to sand, through to light fillers such as glass bubbles, which are easy to sand but not so strong.

For this I would use a wood-fibre filler. You might want to add a small amount of either/both: silica to help it stand up and hold its shape and mahogony flour/dust to colour it. You need very little of either to do the job.

I am sure you will find lots of stuff about making fillets, but if not the best place is in Gudgeon's (sp?) book on boat-building with epoxy.

but very quickly, you make up a 'guk' from epoxy and filler that will stand up and hold it's weight. first paint the area with un-filled epoxy, a little heat never hinders at this point to get the epoxy as deep as possible into the substrate. Then use a lolly-stick or tounge-depresser to putt the epoxy down the join leaving a fillet. You can either then clean up the extra, or peal back the two lines of tape 1/2inch up from join on either side of joint....that you remembered to put down first :-)

That's it.

Lots of places you can buy materials.

I use Wizz at Matrix in Bristol and Cornwall Fibreglass Supplies:

http://www.mcmc-uk.com/

http://www.cfsnet.co.uk/

As for fixing old GRP, yes, it ain't easy and nothing really sticks to it that well......however, the best thing, without doubt will be epoxy to a well abraded surface. I know some will say 'like with like', but from experience I would say: Nothing sticks to old GRP that well.....and Epoxy sticks to any composite material better than pretty much anything else.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
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pburrows
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Re: Next steps with Ent restoration, bit stuck...

Post by pburrows » Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:10 am

Thanks Ed, I'm getting it. Learning a lot here...

So I need

Epoxy - http://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/p ... resin.aspx

Silica - http://www.westsystem.com/ss/406-colloidal-silica

Fine sanding dust, sieved to make a wood flour?

Might sound a bit naive but what about epoxy hardener?
Phill Burrows

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