Fireball Refurb

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smilicus
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by smilicus »

Thanks DavidH and kfz. Will let you know what I find when I hopefully start this weekend
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jpa_wfsc
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by jpa_wfsc »

I've never seen or used a long board... always a random orbital sander which does seem to give reasonable and flat finish as long as you avoid the edge digging in. But i'd like to try something better.

you talk of foam - but thats a very flexible thing and lots of different grades available! And do you glue the sanding sheets to the foam, or glue the foam to long boards of wood, or what??

If anyone has photos or vids of longboarding or detail on how to make them... as I have a couple of hulls to finish this summer and want them to be good.
j./

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trebor
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by trebor »

Robert
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Michael Brigg
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by Michael Brigg »

£28-00??!!

From the look of these I'd say if that's a long board sander then it would be just as effective and rather cheaper to use an orbital sander during a power cut!
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neil
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by neil »

If you really want to longboard then all you need is to make them from MDF or ply. Screw a couple of bits of 2x2 on as handles and glue the paper to the base with contact adhesive. You'll be able to pull/scrape the paper off.

I'm not convinced that longboarding is essential for your refurb. Careful use of an obitial sander will be fine as long as you finish off with a finer paper. Longboarding is a mind-numbing, knackering experience. I'd sand it back with an orbital sander then apply primer/undercoat and flatten this back by hand before topcoating.
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trebor
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by trebor »

I agree with Neil, you need to be fairly strong and fit to push a long board for hours at a time, the length of a Fireball.
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smilicus
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by smilicus »

Thanks for the advice guys

Will take it slow with the orbital and only use a long board after the primer.
davidh
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by davidh »

In the end, it all depends on the finish you want to achieve. If the plan is to get the boat afloat and sailing then you can head off down the 'whatever is easiest' route. If you want to go for something that will look classical (as well as being a classic) then you need to take a different approach. Like everything else, you'll get back what you put in. The people who do this sort of work for big money use longboards as in the end it is more time effective, both in getting the work done and in needing less in the way of post sanding remedial work.

The best boat is the lightweight material used by GRP boatbuilders - most have offcuts laying around or jammed into the bin, you should be able to blag a couple of pieces (about an 1" thick is best as this is easiest to work with yet will bend to the hull curves.)

It might be a tiresome task but it is hardly 'back breaking' and better still, it is damn good exercise. Time wise, I'd long board a Fireball hull faster than you'd have done it with an orbital and I'd need less filling. But starting out with 'old' paint I'd expect to do the hull in a day......

Then comes the to epoxy or not to epoxy question: You'll not find a huge number of posters on here who are 'pro-epoxy' but again, it comes down to what you want to do! If you do roller on the epoxy, then you'll need the long boards to flatten that down and that I can tell you in damn hard work - 'harder than a beggar boys heart' is a good description. But careful work will give you a wonderful base for the high build, wet and dry and then final painting and the great bit is that with an epoxy base you can do what you like - most car sprayers will happily 'blow' a top coat to finish off the job.

I've a series of pictures of this process, both with a contender and a merlin rocket . None of this is rocket science BUT it is hard work (though not to the point that long board itself is 'too hard'), however, on the long flat planks of a Fireball, a good finish really does make the boat look special.

Just a fortnight ago, I was the Concours judge at the Bosham Classic Dinghy Revival meeting; I was looking at originality, fit out and that all important 'finish'. The standards were superb..... I struggled to make the final choice between the top 2 - even so, in 3rd place was Fireball number 6, a boat whose hull demonstrates everything I've said so far.
I'll try to post a picture of that - the other shots that I have of various 'work in progress' I can post elsewhere if needed.

D
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smilicus
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by smilicus »

Thank you for the advice DavidH...looks like there is a long time of sanding lying ahead.

Quick question, I am changing the layout/rigging of the boat to the new layout...would Epoxy make for a stronger boat than varnish?

Would love to see your pictures of the process.

Take care
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by davidh »

A few more words of hard learned advice - this really is one of the cases when co-operative working can pay dividends. Buying your grit paper in commercial rolls and then splitting the roll between a couple of you with boats to restore is a very cost effective way of working. Where they sell the grit paper they'll also sell industrial strength double sided sticky tape - a great way of sticking the grit to the board - what you'll find that that early on your paper will need changing more frequently as the top layer of paint clogs things up - but it would have done this with an orbital too and in less area!

To epoxy or not to epoxy, that is the question! If you're going back to bare wood on the hull, then the % overhead costs are significant but not a 'show stopper'. You'll certainly want your long boards and rolls of grit paper, cutting back the epoxy coating is just about the hardest part of the job but once it is done, you have the most wonderful base for getting a top class finish. Now as well that investment in time and money will start to pay off- you can use high build from any spray shop supplier, ditto your top coat - hugely cheaper than the alternatives.

What the epoxy coat won't do is to stiffen up the hull structure (other than a marginal increase in panel stiffness but this really is so small as to be considered negligible)

If you want to update the rig that means greater rig tensions which would require so additional bracing and stiffening. I'm sure that there is help to be had over from the UK FA. However, just bear in mind the examples to be found over in the merlin Rocket fleet where originality has been sacrificed in favour of modern, performance enhancing developments!

D
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smilicus
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by smilicus »

Thanks again David

Another question - How can I tell if the boat has been epoxied or varnished?

Happy sailing all
davidh
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by davidh »

Are you talking now about the decks?

For starters - age plays a big part, you ought to be able to find out when you boat was built (try Chris Turner - he has Number 6 and number 66 and is a mine of all good things F'ball').

In the end, it depends on the state of the decks now and where you want them to be. Personally, I'd doubt that your boat is epoxied so for the decks you're into a slower and more careful process (as you can't so easily hide your mistakes). I'd try Nitromors and a v sharp scraper, if you quickly reach a layer that the nitromors doesn't really touch then you're hit epoxy ( a bit like striking oil).
If not, get the old varnish, all of it, lightly sand decks, then two coats of epoxy, taking great care with the time between coats to ensure proper bonding and ensuring that you've gone for the epoxy with UV protection. Flatten this down, 3 coats of two pot varnish and you'll have that wonder deep lustre to your bright work!

D
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jpa_wfsc
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by jpa_wfsc »

smilicus wrote:Thanks again David

Another question - How can I tell if the boat has been epoxied or varnished?

Happy sailing all

sand a bit and sniff.... old epoxy will not smell much, but varnish, however old, will smell nice and varnishy as it warms up under sanding.
j./

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roger
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by roger »

I have a boat that was epoxied several years ago. She has rolled decks and the problems are beginning to appear. Some of the epoxy has cracked on the rolled decks looks horrible. I have tried redoing it but that also looks awful. I have chipped some away and re-varnished and that looks horrible to. On the underside of the hull some of it had cracked and water had got in under the epoxy and the damp was getting into the wood and going all black. In the end I peeled, chipped, and sraped any loose stuff off and sanded down to bare wood where I could. I let it dry for a week and varnished it. At least varnish "breaths" and allows damp to evaporate away.
I personally prefer the look of varnish it has a much deeper look to it epoxy looks a little plastic to me.
As David said you will find those who love it and those like me who don't. I don't think it is as easy to maintain once it has been damaged. Its a bugger to get off and I haven't found it easy to patch.
The choice is yours and good luck with the refurb. Lots more pics please and we would love to see the finished article whatever the finish at an event some time.

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GAVinT
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Re: Fireball Refurb

Post by GAVinT »

ImageImageA couple of pics of my last one
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