Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

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JimC
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by JimC » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:11 pm

Jimmylovescake wrote:Which one is more suitable and if I did this should the patch go on from the outside surface or the inside?
Its as much a question of what's practical as anything else. Tapered edges on all four sides is ideal, but very difficult to do. Using separate layers of wood, each matching a layer of the existing ply is rather easier. Inside or outside, well there's no right answer, it depends on what you find. If you discover that the inner layer of ply is rotten over a large area, but the outer layer is nearly all good, well it makes sense to work from the inside. If you have good stringers and things in the way, easier to leave the stringers and things in place and work from the outside.

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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:14 pm

Either side of the hog are two pieces of thin hardwood that have been tacked and glued. Do these offer any structural strength to the boat or am I safe to remove them while stripping and sanding?
They don't appear to be doing much to me, and they both have a section cut away for the patches that I intend to remove, so they have to come out at some point. I really need to know if they are best left while I continue to work inside the boat.

Jimmylovescake
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:28 pm

Tapered edges on all four sides is ideal, but very difficult to do.

If I was to do this was sort of width should I be looking at for the join? Would I be right in saying the shallower the angle and the greater the surface area exposed, the stronger the join should be?

Also, would it be worth using a router for this? I'd considered my sander polisher or a sanding pad on a grinder just because I'm pretty confident of my accuracy with these two tools (can easily and accurately strip a hotcoat and one layer of glass over a soft foam surfboard).

I saw some guys using circular saws on you tube, that strikes me as quite a harsh tool to use for such a job and I wouldn't be as confident with accuracy with this beyond cutting flat wood.

bornagainmothie
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by bornagainmothie » Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:32 pm

A scarf joint in the bottom panel would need to be tapered back at least 2" or so. You are right in thinking the larger surface area for the glue, the stronger the joint will be. If using epoxy there will be plenty of strength without having to taper much more. By letting the patch in from outside it will look like a smaller repair when varnished inside. As the repair is up against the centreboard case it would be easier to cut away a small section of the keel piece underneath, exposing the ply where it is glued to the hog, that way there is only 3 sides to scarf, and you can check the hog is solid too.

A sharp wide wood chisel is best for making the taper for the scarf joint. Cut the hole to the inside dimensions and mark out a border for the taper. It can be roughed out with a surform or similar, but use the chisel to keep the taper flat and square. The patch can be tapered with a hand plane, obviously to the same dimensions.

The other rubbing strips you talk of are part of the stiffening of the floor panel and should be replaced. They could be loose if the glue has failed and the panel has flexed. They can also be used to strengthen / hide the repair if you extend the patch to join underneath them.
(See comments on trailer damage on the other Ent restoration )

Please bear in mind before modifying that sizes and shapes of components used in the construction are controlled within the class rules for most types of racing dinghy. Even if you don't intend to race, it could de-value the boat by no longer being an Enterprise if it doesn't conform to the class rules. If in doubt, put it back as it was - Jack Holt generally designed it like that for a reason!

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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:39 pm

Thanks again folks for the detailed advice. I do intend on putting everything back the way It was when I got it, only solid where things may have been a bit soft and tidy where they looked rough.
I was told that it was used for racing and still registered to do so when I bought it.
The only modifications I had contemplated were the transom and a bulkhead. Both are off the list of plans after reading through the forums and the advice I've had here.

It does look like the original repairs may have been as a result of trailer damage; and while the boat still rests in the trailer at the moment, I certainly need to be considering an alternative whilst working on it. I was told that standing in the boat whilst on the ground was not good for It, and it is now apparent that standing in it whilst on the trailer is a no no too. What would be my best option in a tight working space (one car garage)?
Thanks again.

paulmidd
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by paulmidd » Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:47 pm

Try a stepped join as, I think, Jim C was suggesting. Instead of a ~2" continuous taper, cut back each successive layer of veneer using router and/or sharp chisel. It is easier to match this broad shallow stepped profile with a similarly profiled patch (use cardboard as patterns). The rub is that your modern ply/veneer will be of metric thickness and therefore not an exact match to the imperial floor ply. However if you work to make the inside flush, then any excess or low patches can be sanded or filed to bring the exterior flush and all hidden by the paint. The joint has loads of area for epoxy and will be super strong.

Take the floor stringers off. Two of the floor stringers were partially loose on my boat but with carefull flexing and prodding were relatively easy to remove.

And those strut things........... :evil:

Yes - that trailer looks rubbish. The one with my boat didnt fit either, so I made a cradle out of GRP using the boat as a mould. Snug fit now and properly supported. Get a bunch of old tyres and wedge them under the keel and rubbing bands on the chines to spread the load while working. So long as you dont take all the support out at once, ie. thwarts, centreboard case, hog, etc. the boat should be ok.

Cheers
Paul

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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Wed Oct 02, 2013 7:26 pm

Just to clarify, are the "rubbing strips" / "floor stringers" th3 same thing?

JimC
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by JimC » Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:49 pm

Jimmylovescake wrote:Just to clarify, are the "rubbing strips" / "floor stringers" th3 same thing?
I should look up exactly how an Enterprise is built really but...

Rubbing strips are generally fairly narrow and on the outside of the hull near the chines. Like it says on the tin they are primarily there to protect the skin, but doubtless they brace as well.
Stringers in my dictionary are pieces of stripwood that typically run the length of the boat or a substantial part of it. You put them onto the frames before the ply goes on. The Enterprise may only have stringers at the chines, I don't recall. They're structurally very important.
Wider (4" maybe) bits of ply glued on the floor I don't recall the name for, but a lot of 50s designs have them. They're to reinforce the floor where its jumped on, but also might help keep feet dry a tad.

Rupert
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Rupert » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:09 am

One trouble is that names for all the boat parts were invented well before light plywood dinghies came on the scene.

For me, as well as Jim's description, the inside floor stiffeners are also called stringers, even though they aren't part of the main structure.

And the rubbing strip is the outer part of the gunwale, for me. But as I don't have a name for the bits on the bottom of the hull "bilge strips", maybe, or an equal confusion by calling them stringers as well, rubbing strips is a good as anything.
Rupert

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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Michael Brigg » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:18 am

On the outside of the hull I would think these are technically a form of Keel.
Michael Brigg

Jimmylovescake
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:27 am

It's all good, as long as I understand the advice given, which has all been really helpful so far and given lots of food for thought for the tasks ahead.

Can anyone shed any light on how the keel and the hog are joined?
I'm trying to work out if I will need to separate the two, (don't really want to as I have very limited undercover space and only my set of hands). Or if, when I come to the hull repairs, it will be simple enough to remove the ply from the gap between them in order to replace those sections.

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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by kfz » Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:11 am

Rupert wrote:One trouble is that names for all the boat parts were invented well before light plywood dinghies came on the scene.

For me, as well as Jim's description, the inside floor stiffeners are also called stringers, even though they aren't part of the main structure.

And the rubbing strip is the outer part of the gunwale, for me. But as I don't have a name for the bits on the bottom of the hull "bilge strips", maybe, or an equal confusion by calling them stringers as well, rubbing strips is a good as anything.

Im with Rup on this one. Bilge keels. Rubbing strip is on the gunwale level with the deck.

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PeterV
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by PeterV » Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:51 pm

'How the hog and keel are joined'
Remember that the boat was built upside down. The hog was fitted to the building frames and the floor ply panels fitted over this, butting together on the centreline. The keel was then fitted on top. So, to take it apart the boat has to be upside down and the keel comes off first, exposing the ends of the floor ply under the hog.

Hope this helps. If the floor ply has substantially rotted it may well be rotten in the areas hidden under the hog (when the boat is right way up). It will then also be necessary to check if the hog is rotten too. If it is then the repairs become a lot more difficult. Also, if this area isn't done right it will always leak. I had a boat where the floor ply panels had been replaced on a rotten hog and a nice new keel fitted over the top. I could never fix the leaks and when I did come to take the new keel and floor panels off the hog was by then rotten from bow to stern and the boat was a right off.
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Jimmylovescake
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:04 pm

Well, after getting the the varnish off the inside of the hull up to the foredeck beam it is evident that the two centre pieces of ply need replacing and patching will not suffice :(
Not only is one piece thinner than it should be, but I have poked a hole, whilst testing soundness, right next to the hog, so have nothing to fix a patch to.
So I now have to plan my next stages of work from the following tasks.

-Replace both sheets of ply aft of the foredeck and either side of the hog / keel.
-Replace the kingplank and foredeck beam.
-Fix transom back in place as it was already loose from one side.

Any suggestions on the order I should get this done?
Thanks again in advance.

paulmidd
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Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by paulmidd » Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:49 pm

Replacing sections of the hull panels may in fact be quicker than doing multiple patches.

Order of work is hull panels first - this is make or break for the boat. Other stuff doesnt matter in a relative order but perhaps temporarily screw the transom in place to help retain boat shape while working on the hull.

Your boat has obviously had some major repair work done in the past. Explains those odd centreboard case supports and the thin ply.

Turn it upside down and attack it as Peter suggests. The keel will be glued and screwed to the hog. There is an older post somewhere in this ection that has pictures of an Ent having it's hull panels replaced - do a search for Enterprise and you should find it. The case, thwarts, seats, etc. are all left in place to hold the boat in shape. The person also cut across the keel only taking off the portion of the keel needed to access the area of hull to replace. Does that make sense?

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