Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

share hints, tips and experiences
Jimmylovescake
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:34 pm
Location: North Devon

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:48 pm

Thanks for that Paul.
So is the likelihood that I'm going to have to cut away a section of the keel, or is it feasible to separate Keel & Hog to keep it in one piece? Either way what would be my better, if rather intimidating, option?

To add. I have just been in touch with the Enterprise Class Association who have confirmed that the boat was indeed built in May 1959 by a S.D.Smith, and it is registered as meeting all measurement requirements for its class (what ever that means).

I have to say that I am staggered at how quick and willing everyone I've spoken to has been to offer advice, information and help. It seems I've clumsily stumbled into a fantastic community and association of sailors, boat builders and restorers who have a real passion for these boats. It's very warming, and I am very grateful.

Jimmylovescake
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:34 pm
Location: North Devon

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:58 pm

Well it has taken me all day and I have finally removed the keel :-)
Almost every screw either went to pieces or snapped but the keel itself has no rot at all a d has outlasted the copper screws used to hold it in place. I can't deny that I am relieved to have done this without causing any damage beyond slightly chiseled screw holes, although I have chipped away at what appeared to be some p38 filler on the bow which I will need to look at after replacing the ply either side of centre.

Next step, remove the ply and prey the hog is equally as solid.
Thanks again for the advice folks.

One further question for now; at the stern, either side of centre, there are two 2"pieces of wood in line with the transom and flush with the current ply. Should these be removed when I replace the ply sections (so the ply goes flush with the transom)?

kfz
Posts: 383
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:38 pm
Location: Liverpool SC
Contact:

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by kfz » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:38 pm

The screws won't be copper, though they might all that's left if they where brass. Moreover likely they will be bronze, Si Br.

Unless you a doing a completely authentic restoration you will probably want to replace with stainless. Make sure you use a marine quality stainless, A4 or 316. I've found these guys these guys most helpful.

http://www.sea-sure.co.uk

And you prob already know about

http://www.robbins.co.uk

I find it's a good idea tot be thinking one job ahead of where you are.....

Good work btw

Kev

Jimmylovescake
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:34 pm
Location: North Devon

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:17 pm

Thanks Kev. I won't lie, each step from now is new ground for me that will need skills I am going to have to learn as I go.
I was planning to go as original as I can, so brass screws was what I had in mind.
The reason I thought the original screws were copper was the blue copper sulphate looking corrosion on some that I'd removed from the deck, does brass do this too?

Can you shed any light on the 2"pieces of wood at the stern? Need to know about this before replacing / cutting any expensive marine ply (I got some prices from Robbins which made me feel quite sick. Has anyone heard of Lathams in Exeter?)

kfz
Posts: 383
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:38 pm
Location: Liverpool SC
Contact:

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by kfz » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:42 pm

Jimmylovescake wrote:Thanks Kev. I won't lie, each step from now is new ground for me that will need skills I am going to have to learn as I go.
I was planning to go as original as I can, so brass screws was what I had in mind.
The reason I thought the original screws were copper was the blue copper sulphate looking corrosion on some that I'd removed from the deck, does brass do this too?

Can you shed any light on the 2"pieces of wood at the stern? Need to know about this before replacing / cutting any expensive marine ply (I got some prices from Robbins which made me feel quite sick. Has anyone heard of Lathams in Exeter?)
Brass isnt really suitable. Your salt water arnt you. Use stainless.

kfz
Posts: 383
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:38 pm
Location: Liverpool SC
Contact:

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by kfz » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:43 pm

Jimmylovescake wrote:
Can you shed any light on the 2"pieces of wood at the stern? Need to know about this before replacing / cutting any expensive marine ply (I got some prices from Robbins which made me feel quite sick. Has anyone heard of Lathams in Exeter?)
not without a pic. Not well up on Ents. One of the Ent guys should be able to help.

Kev

Jimmylovescake
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:34 pm
Location: North Devon

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:03 pm

Aha! With the plethora of pictures I thought I'd included one of said part, clearly I haven't. I will add pictures of the bit to the album tomorrow if I get the chance.

paulmidd
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:07 pm

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by paulmidd » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:11 pm

Jimmy,
Apologies first of all - weather, work and PO opening hours have conspired against me and the USB I promised you has only just been put in post. Better late than never perhaps.

Been looking at your photos - excellent stuff and very helpful for the rest of us when you are asking questions. Impressive work with the keel and good news that it's in good nick. Your centreboard case also looks in good condition, so hopefully it's just the floor ply that's knackered.

It does seem to me that this will be the second time your boat has had it's floor replaced. I think that is also where those two 2" sections of ply you were asking about are from. It's interesting to note that the side panels do not have the same sections, implying to me that the pieces in question were part of the first floor repair and inserted to reinforce the join between floor and transom. If this appears to be the case, then remove them if possible - epoxy and screws are plenty strong enough!

Robbins are expensive it is true. But quality is good, customer service good and the wood has the reputation of matching the original mahogany woods used in 1950/60's boats. This is my experience with 1551. Absolutely nothing wrong with going to another supplier, as long as you get bona fide marine grade ply.

Back to my favourite aspect about your Ent ( :wink: ) - those struts. Looking at your photos I spy screw holes along those vertical pices of wood on each side of the centreboard case. These are where the original 'L' shaped case knees would have been attached - more evidence for a past major repair.

FWIW here (I hope) is a link to some photos of 1551, which might be of help: http://s1049.photobucket.com/user/paulm ... 3310133284

Cheers
Paul

Jimmylovescake
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:34 pm
Location: North Devon

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:37 pm

Ha Ha....I too spotted these yesterday Paul and did chuckle to myself after not seeing them before.
I have no idea what the should look like, but will have a look at the bits you send and see what I can work out from there. I would like to get it as original as I can with my limited or yet to be learnt abilities.
I will have photos of these two bits of wood I was on about tonight to try and help clear this up first.
Should be ordering epoxy and ply hopefully by the end of this week or next . I had intended to use West systems 105 with the 205 hardener, I was also going to use the micro bubbles for the small filling jobs (although I need to have a good look at the bow now and decide whether to cut back and patch or use epoxy and glass). I also intend to tape all seams once the repairs are carried out.
First things first, and that's to get repairs and filling done.

Any recommendations paint strippers to get the varnish remnants off? I'm told nitromors isn't what it was thanks to the HSE.

paulmidd
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:07 pm

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by paulmidd » Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:33 pm

Have a look at my Photobucket link to see the old and new centreboard knees in my Ent - or for that matter any piccys of Ents. Anyone with a set of Ent plans could give you dimensions. Alternatively, I still have the old knees plus the templates I made up for the new ones I fitted so could send you a paper copy of these if you need it in the future.

I did the same with the West stuff - very good from East Coast Glassfibre Supplies. I ordered a couple of cheap syringes for quantity measuring which worked well. Cleaned out with a bit of acetone and soapy water after each job, they have just lasted the distance. Vaseline was needed each time on the syringe though - said the bishop to the actress :!: Oh and plenty of masking tape and paper to keep spreadage to a minimum - but remove it before it sets (as I found out the hard way).

Didn't use any paint stripper, just the heat gun.....for months.

Jimmylovescake
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:34 pm
Location: North Devon

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:42 pm

Fibreglass, filler and resin work is an are that I have quite a bit of experience with; including tints and inlays, so masking off and saving work should fortunately not be a lesson I have to learn.

From looking at your centreboard knees am I right in saying that they span the boat to support the middle of the seat? I like this idea and I see what you mean....You hate almost convinced me to do it. I will need to see what the budget looks like after everything else that has to be done.

I love the fly in the lacquer, reminded me of My surfboard glassing and repair days and the annoying little critters getting in the hotcoat or gloss coat.....I learnt to turn the lights of except a lamp in the corner of the room, that and the fly paper worked a treat.

paulmidd
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:07 pm

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by paulmidd » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:38 pm

Centreboard knees - yes you are right. Plenty of pictures of these in the 'Ent Notes' word doc on the USB when it gets to you. They are allowed by the class rules but I didn't go and get any specific measurements or plans (if any exist). I just eyeballed the different examples I found on the web and drew up my own template. A lot of fannying about with cardboard, tape, stapler and hardboard but ended up getting a fit I was pleased with. Spanning the boat and supporting the seats adds a lot of stiffness and, although I'm not going to be cranking up the rig tension at all, the adaptation seemed a worthwhile one to do. I made the two knees from a 1/4 sheet of 15mm super-elite ply from Robbins and had plenty left over.

Use your GRP skills to make a proper cradle for your launching trolley, with the keel and bilge keels taking most of the weight.

"...I learnt to turn the lights of except a lamp in the corner of the room, that and the fly paper worked a treat" - of course! Bugger!!

Jimmylovescake
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:34 pm
Location: North Devon

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:32 pm

So after removing the keel at the weekend I made a start at removing the aft panels either side of centre this evening.
My first attempts of trying to do this from the the hull side were thwarted, as the glue between the ply and the hog was solid; so, bearing in mind that the boat was upside down on a set of 16" high stands, I thought I'd get underneath and attack it from the inside.
Despite being a little cramped and awkward to get in there, this made the job a lot easier as I was able to prise the ply away from the hog a little at a time whilst having a good view to ensure I wasn't going to cause it any damage in the process.

It took a while of careful work with a selection of newly sharpened chisels, but eventually I got the first board loose and free from the hog. I did learn in the process that the 2" piece of wood I had mentioned earlier was not original, as this pretty much fell off when removing the ply; and so far I am relieved to say that the hog, although damp in one spot, feels solid.

Before going too far I decided to stop and have a little think about the next stage, which included some measuring and some planning of how I was going to shape and fit the new ply, from here stem the next question.

Firstly, because the original panels are exactly 8'long (almost missed that one until I thought about the scarf joint) I would have no room to play with out of a regular 8' sheet of ply, so I've decided, as the scarf joint is both tidy and solid, to replace the panel, but not the full 8' (come back 4" or so), this should make getting the ply flush & tidy with the transom slightly less of a critical task. I still intend to scarf the forward join, but here's the thing....

...Obviously these boats have been built from the centre out, so the adjacent panels fit over the top, almost, of the centre pieces. Now I am quite happy to shape the replacement ply to fit angled cavity, however, it would clearly be easier if the top 8mm (thickness of the ply) of the adjacent panel could be cut back flush with the stringer, that way I can lay the new sheet straight on top, and plane / sand it back flush to the adjacent panel. (I'm guessing the only people who will understand what I'm on about are the ones who have encountered this before and I hope it's easier to understand than it is to describe).
Although this is perfectly feasible as an easy option, I'm really wanting to know if there is any reason that I should not do this, and if not, has anyone got any handy tips on separating the centre ply from this join without causing damage?

bornagainmothie
Posts: 216
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:28 pm

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by bornagainmothie » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:22 pm

All going well so far, good work.
I understand your predicament with the joint between bottom panel and chine panel, the bottom would have been fitted first, then its edge planed off flush with the chine stringer, then the chine panel fitted. I would agree the practical way to replace the bottom panel is to reverse the process, ie, trim the chine panel back to stringer level and run the bottom panel over it. It would be near imossible to fit a new bottom back in to that corner. The exposed edge of the ply moves around to become part of the chine, but if well sealed with epoxy will not cause a problem.
To remove the ply from the stringer it might be easier to cut the panel with a jigsaw just inside the line of the stringer all the way along. (making sure there's nothing else getting cut through!) then pull out all the screws or nails before chiseling away the ply left on the stringer or breaking the glue, then planing to clean up and prepare the new joint.
Is your new ply an 8ft sheet or a metric sheet? Some can be just enough over 8ft to give you the leeway you need. On the other hand the builder may have had a long 8ft sheet to start with! If necessary, 2 scarf joints would work ok.

Lyndon

Jimmylovescake
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:34 pm
Location: North Devon

Re: Another Enterprise Restoration of boat number 1734

Post by Jimmylovescake » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:45 am

Having measured from the transom to the end of the scarf joint it is 8' on the dot, so I think I'll put in a second scarf joint further down the panel.
I had planned to cut away the layers of ply for the scarf joint with a router before fully removing the existing bottom panel, this was simply to avoid trashing the edge, which should be easier to keep good with a saw.
As for getting the angle to fit under the chine panel, I reckon I could do this with a planer in the same way I would shape a surfboard rail (if not using a Fred ;-) tricky but not impossible. The bit that I have trouble working out is how to remove all of the old ply from the cavity without causing any damage to the chine panel, as to do this with a chisel would be very difficult. Again, I had thought of using a router, but that would be some pretty fine and close work, something I'm not sure of my own capabilities of being so close to the edge.

Post Reply