Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

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si_hitch
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Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by si_hitch » Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:42 pm

Hi, I know this topic has been well covered, but just saw a product called Peelaway on EBay. Has anyone used it? I have an Enterprise with several holes, I really want to completely strip the hull to see what needs doing. I have tried a heat gun, sander, paint panther (stripper from toolstation). Its all ok, but slow! Peelaway claims to be able to strip multiple layers! I gather this claim is probably too good to be true, but doesn't hurt to ask!

simonmw
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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by simonmw » Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:51 am

I know nothing about Peelaway, but some hopefully useful info on stripping paint in general-

The active ingredient in Nitromors used to be a chemical called Dichloromethane. The EU in their infinite wisdom banned this, considering it unsafe for the user and environment. The 'new, improved' (yeah, right!) Nitromors is ethanol based, and is much less effective than the old/noxious formula was.

Dichloromethane is, however, readily available on ebay in whatever quantity you choose to purchase. I have had great success in the past by buying a can of 'new recipe' Nitromors from B&Q, some Dichloromethane from ebay, and mixing my own from the two. It doesn't work on its own, as it evaporates off too quickly to have any effect without whatever is in the Nitromors to allow it to sit wet on the surface and have time to react.

Incidentally, whilst Dichloromethane is clearly far too dangerous to strip paint, it is considered perfectly safe to use for de-caffienating coffee. How does that work?!?
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neil
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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by neil » Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:16 am

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Jimmylovescake
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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by Jimmylovescake » Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:39 pm

I have been using 'Stripaway Pro', and it is pretty effective, especially with wire wool on fine grains.
Again it takes off layers of paint, varnish and skin and has dichloromethane in it....
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291038254434? ... 1438.l2649

podmeister
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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by podmeister » Sun Dec 29, 2013 11:41 pm

Quick question regarding strippers...

Any need for concern and how it effects epoxy that is holding the boat together?

Also how dirty does a stripper make your wood? I suggested yo a friend of mine, that once I'm done with stripping with the hot air gun I'll be using paints tripper and wire wool to really get into the grain. He nearly fainted at the concept and then asked about how I intended to clean it off after. I suggested white spirits and he took another sharp intake of breath as the boat would need washing with water after that to ensure there were no residues that could potentially stop the new layer of epoxy adhering to the boat.

So what do people think?

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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by JimC » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:00 am

podmeister wrote:Any need for concern and how it effects epoxy that is holding the boat together?
IME both (at least some) paint strippers and hot air guns can hurt epoxy.

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Ed
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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by Ed » Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:49 am

Hi Podmeister....

I don't think there is much to panic over here.

Yes, a hotairgun and stripper can attack epoxy, but I have only really seen this happen when removing epoxy coatings and varnishes, I think when used as a glue it is just too thick, too hard, and too stuck in place to really be effected too much. Epoxy is normally filleted to some degree, which might give more surface area for stripper or hot air to attack, but would also protect the joint. At worst, you might have to replace some fillets. But I have never had a problem with this. So don't panic too much on this one.

As for cleaning off the stripper, again I wouldn't panic too much. All strippers will normally say on them what can be used to neutralise them, but to be honest, most just self-neutralise as they run out of strength and get rubbed out and off the wood by the subsequent scraping/sanding etc. Still, I would certainly recommend washing it down. Many strippers as you say use either white spirit or meths. if either work, use meths as it is less greasy and oily than the white spirit....although this depends on what you intend to use as a primer. best not to use white spirit under a two pack/g4 etc.

Then, I always give boats a good wash down in water and detergent and a good scrub with a brush. You will be amazed how many marks can be removed by doing this. My only concern about this, is try and do it on a day when it will dry out relatively quickly. I have had stains created whilst drying once, that I never really confirmed where due to the wood restorer/cleaner used (Netrol) or just simply mildew from it talking a long time to dry out.

I would in the past of recommended Netrol to clean the bare wood down with....but I and I know Neil have both had problems since they brought out a new recipe of the stuff.

But anyway, this is a long way of saying.....don't worry too much, just make sure you don't leave it damp for too long.

cheers

eib
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dronskiuk
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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by dronskiuk » Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:49 pm

Ed wrote:Hi Podmeister....

I don't think there is much to panic over here.

Yes, a hotairgun and stripper can attack epoxy, but I have only really seen this happen when removing epoxy coatings and varnishes, I think when used as a glue it is just too thick, too hard, and too stuck in place to really be effected too much. Epoxy is normally filleted to some degree, which might give more surface area for stripper or hot air to attack, but would also protect the joint. At worst, you might have to replace some fillets. But I have never had a problem with this. So don't panic too much on this one.

As for cleaning off the stripper, again I wouldn't panic too much. All strippers will normally say on them what can be used to neutralise them, but to be honest, most just self-neutralise as they run out of strength and get rubbed out and off the wood by the subsequent scraping/sanding etc. Still, I would certainly recommend washing it down. Many strippers as you say use either white spirit or meths. if either work, use meths as it is less greasy and oily than the white spirit....although this depends on what you intend to use as a primer. best not to use white spirit under a two pack/g4 etc.

Then, I always give boats a good wash down in water and detergent and a good scrub with a brush. You will be amazed how many marks can be removed by doing this. My only concern about this, is try and do it on a day when it will dry out relatively quickly. I have had stains created whilst drying once, that I never really confirmed where due to the wood restorer/cleaner used (Netrol) or just simply mildew from it talking a long time to dry out.

I would in the past of recommended Netrol to clean the bare wood down with....but I and I know Neil have both had problems since they brought out a new recipe of the stuff.

But anyway, this is a long way of saying.....don't worry too much, just make sure you don't leave it damp for too long.

cheers

eib

Thanks for this information, as ever there are several encyclpaedia's worth of knowledge on this forum!

I have a specific issue that I've been putting to the back of the job list because my experimental attempts, the 'trial areas' have not proved to be succesful so far.

I have a 1989 (I think) Winder Fireball that has largely beautiful decks but water or frost has lifted the coating in places leaving large, hard bubbles and a bare area on the transom. I assumed that it had been 2-packed (I think the paint and varnish is probably the original, the boat has been stored outside under a cover) but I've tried and struggled with hot air gun, blow lamp, Nitromors, some stuff recommended on the Firefly forum from a firm in Sudbury whose name escapes me but none of these are really touching it! I think (partly because the finish that is there is quite matt) that it may be just epoxy...is that possible, likely? If so do you or anyone have anything specific that you've found to be good on this material?

Where the bubbles give an edge I can get a scraper to strip 'dry' but the edge of whatever it is is so tough and adheres so well it's almost impossible to remove without risking the veneer underneath. I'm happy to try the products listed above but any experience-guided advice as to which one or another product would be appreciated?

Once again my thanks in advance!

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Ed
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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by Ed » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:42 pm

@ dronskiuk

Might be worth contacting winders to see if they have any thoughts on this or can at least tell you what the coating is.

If nothing is touching it, then it is most probably either an epoxy or a two-pack polyurethane.

Sometimes you can find coverings which just will not lift off.....I have one at the moment, covered in some weird shellac based varnish from, most probably 1907 (if research is right), which is just horrible. hot air won't touch it and stripper turns it into the stickest bubble gum like crap ever.

Of course it is this very problem why I always advise using soft one-pack varnishes rather than hard two-packs. The two packs might last 2, 3 or more times longer, but when they go, they can be so hard to remove that you end up doing more damage to the wood than you ever would with removing a soft varnish 3 or 4 times.

Anyway, the bad news is that it might be that the only way to get this off is simply to sand or scrape it off.....

But if you have a really stubborn varnish....do try these methods first.

First.....do not, I mean absolutely not use any blowlamp or flame based heat source. It is just impossible to use without some burning somewhere at some stage. You might get away with it for a few mins, but then you will burn the wood. I would also say, that it is possible to burn some woods....even with some hotair guns. So take care!!!
Secondly.....do not, I mean absolutely not use a belt sander! It is impossible to use without damaging the wood.

OK, what can you do:

First try the hot air gun. This works well with 'some' epoxies....which come off like butter with a little heat, but others are much more heat resistant and I am afraid some hard polys don't budge at all with heat. But try it first.

Then, if you have tried stripper with no luck, try this:

First, abrade the surface of the varnish with a really rough abrasive paper 40 grit. Presuming you are not going to go through, then it isn't going to matter too much which way you sand, (but take care). The idea is to cut the surface up enough to allow the stripper to act on the inner non-oxidised varnish. Even doing this, you might find that the stripper needs to be applied 2 or 3 times, before any real softening happens. And this is the point, it can 'soften' the surface rather than lift it like it will do a normal varnish. It might not look like it is doing much.....but just enough to allow you to get it off with a good scraper.

You can find that this process takes up gallons of striper, but slowly it will come off.

Or, you can possibly.....and I don't really advise this, but in frustration I have tried cutting the surface with 40 grit then leaving it covered with kitchen towel soaked in cellulose thinners or MEK. This is most probably pretty dangerous and I would only do it outside, as obviously the fumes are pretty intense. When I did this.....it did work.....but not any more effectively than the very slow effect of the stripper, but of course it is much cheaper.

In the end, there are some surfaces, which just will not budge any way except by by scraping or sanding.

I havn't had much luck with powered sanding, although a good orbital will work as long as you can afford to keep buying new abrasive, but the issue is that if the varnish is this hard, it will take the edge off your abrasive very quickly and this ends up being very expensive again.

In my experience, in the end, the only thing that will do it is just my trusty Stanley Scraper.....and lots of elbow grease and lots and lots of time.

So good luck.

send images and tell us how you are getting on with it.

cheers

eib
Ed Bremner
CVRDA


Jollyboat J3
Firefly F2942
IC GBR314 ex S51 - 1970 Slurp
MR 638 - Please come and take it away
Phelps Scull
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dronskiuk
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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by dronskiuk » Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:42 pm

Ed wrote:@ dronskiuk

Might be worth contacting winders to see if they have any thoughts on this or can at least tell you what the coating is.

If nothing is touching it, then it is most probably either an epoxy or a two-pack polyurethane.

Sometimes you can find coverings which just will not lift off.....I have one at the moment, covered in some weird shellac based varnish from, most probably 1907 (if research is right), which is just horrible. hot air won't touch it and stripper turns it into the stickest bubble gum like crap ever.

Of course it is this very problem why I always advise using soft one-pack varnishes rather than hard two-packs. The two packs might last 2, 3 or more times longer, but when they go, they can be so hard to remove that you end up doing more damage to the wood than you ever would with removing a soft varnish 3 or 4 times.

Anyway, the bad news is that it might be that the only way to get this off is simply to sand or scrape it off.....

But if you have a really stubborn varnish....do try these methods first.

First.....do not, I mean absolutely not use any blowlamp or flame based heat source. It is just impossible to use without some burning somewhere at some stage. You might get away with it for a few mins, but then you will burn the wood. I would also say, that it is possible to burn some woods....even with some hotair guns. So take care!!!
Secondly.....do not, I mean absolutely not use a belt sander! It is impossible to use without damaging the wood.

OK, what can you do:

First try the hot air gun. This works well with 'some' epoxies....which come off like butter with a little heat, but others are much more heat resistant and I am afraid some hard polys don't budge at all with heat. But try it first.

Then, if you have tried stripper with no luck, try this:

First, abrade the surface of the varnish with a really rough abrasive paper 40 grit. Presuming you are not going to go through, then it isn't going to matter too much which way you sand, (but take care). The idea is to cut the surface up enough to allow the stripper to act on the inner non-oxidised varnish. Even doing this, you might find that the stripper needs to be applied 2 or 3 times, before any real softening happens. And this is the point, it can 'soften' the surface rather than lift it like it will do a normal varnish. It might not look like it is doing much.....but just enough to allow you to get it off with a good scraper.

You can find that this process takes up gallons of striper, but slowly it will come off.

Or, you can possibly.....and I don't really advise this, but in frustration I have tried cutting the surface with 40 grit then leaving it covered with kitchen towel soaked in cellulose thinners or MEK. This is most probably pretty dangerous and I would only do it outside, as obviously the fumes are pretty intense. When I did this.....it did work.....but not any more effectively than the very slow effect of the stripper, but of course it is much cheaper.

In the end, there are some surfaces, which just will not budge any way except by by scraping or sanding.

I havn't had much luck with powered sanding, although a good orbital will work as long as you can afford to keep buying new abrasive, but the issue is that if the varnish is this hard, it will take the edge off your abrasive very quickly and this ends up being very expensive again.

In my experience, in the end, the only thing that will do it is just my trusty Stanley Scraper.....and lots of elbow grease and lots and lots of time.

So good luck.

send images and tell us how you are getting on with it.

cheers

eib
Ed

Many thanks for taking that time and trouble...I'll let you know. I too hate belt sanders and have had no more success with the oscillating tool with scraper blade. To revert to bygone times...I'll keep trying the chemicals!

Happy New Year!

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Re: Strippers (the paint removing kind! )

Post by JimC » Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:04 am

dronskiuk wrote:and have had no more success with the oscillating tool with scraper blade.
The random orbital sander is my weapon of choice when it comes to large areas of hull. Cuts far better than an ordinary orbital but without the vicious edges of the belt sander.

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