I14 K869 Agamemnon

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Ed
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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by Ed » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:23 pm

yes, of course Jim you are right I should of said 'wasn't' rather than 'isn't' and as you say the rules did change a few times.

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Nessa
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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by Nessa » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:42 pm

I may well be wrong, but I thing Aggie was built to carry a trapeze, then it was outlawed so taken off, then made legal again. Either way, the rig is massive.
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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by chris » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:22 am

It seems the trapeze was first tried in 1938, then banned. Then allowed in 1969, Twin trapeze allowed in 1984.
(From Ton Vaughan's book)

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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by Bill-Conner » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:17 pm

There was no way you could ever sheet a big Int 14 Genoa inside the shrouds it wouls not get past the Diamonds and spreaders!
The initial Peter Scott/John Winter trapeze was for the 1938 POW race and immediately Peter was asked to draft a rule banning it until the pressure from Jeremy Pudney amongst others and the retirement of Stewart Morris meant it came into legality again for the 1969 season.
Agamemnon would be on the cusp.
Of course it's a big rig it (The old style 14) was a gentleman's conveyance built to be crewed by real men!

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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by JimC » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:44 pm

Bill-Conner wrote:There was no way you could ever sheet a big Int 14 Genoa inside the shrouds it wouls not get past the Diamonds and spreaders!
Hence late 30s rigs wth 3 diamond spreaders to allow a narrower sheeting angle.

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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by Bill-Conner » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:05 pm

Just to hold the rig up, there are enough pictures of the genoa sheeted OUTside the shrouds. Not even Stars sheeted close in in those days.

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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by Bill-Conner » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:14 pm

Attached picture clearly shows the state of the art Thunder and Lightning using the trapeze in the 1938 POW and the genoa which came back about 7' sheeted outside.
For a definitive history of the trapeze read Jamie Campbell's excellent History of The Royal Norfolk & Suffolk Y C. including the illustrations by Peter Scott of how they wanted it made and the bill from Harts Boatyard at Surbiton from PS's archives.
Attachments
Thunder and Lightening.jpg

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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by clibb » Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:51 pm

My old Shdi design, 839, had the original genoa coming back to within 2 feet of the transom, so no chance of sheeting inside the shrouds. However, the shrouds were anchored to slides mounted on the inside tank, a good 9/10 inches inside the gunwhale, and this helped. I seem to remember that in John Oakley's book Winning there was a very good picture of these extremely large genoas on 14's, unfortunately I don't have my copy now. The real issue was chafe of the sail against the spreaders, and getting the yards of cloth round from one side to the other, as left to it's own devices the sail would belly through between the forestay and mast and get stuck. Timing was key. A new genoa from Dynamic was made with a more reasonable length of foot, about 8 feet, and reduced the need for a ridiculously long jib pole.

At the same time that 14's were using these oversize genoas they were also sailing with monstrously big roaches, and the combination of these, with mast technology of the day, meant that the rigs did look, frankly, very silly.

Nick

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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by Bill-Conner » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:51 am

The other thing that made the rig, only for the skilful, and different to look at, was the 14' hound height a hangover from 2 part masts so they would fit in a railway goods van with the boat! It was raised to 16' sometime in the 60's maybe at the same time the one trapeze was introduced.
The big roaches were possible with American Dacron Sailcloth.
It is bizarre perhaps that boats with genoas that change to blade jibs to shorten sail do not go as fast or handle as well any more than reefing a racing dinghy (Except for a pre 1962 Int' 14.) really works, someone will get round under full sail!

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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by Nessa » Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:02 pm

The boat is home, the mast is going up tomorrow, then begins the business of working out what goes where. We're aiming to have main and jib plus basic controls all in place for Roadford.
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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by alan williams » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:05 am

Hi Nessa
Re: big Genoa on INT 14
On Audacity 732 the Genoa was sheeted 2ft from the stern and needed two racket blocks and windward gunnel cleats to control it. We also had a Cunningham fitted to it. The genoa was tameable as has been said previously with good timing in tacks. Get it wrong and not only was it a bastard to sheet in but could also tip you in. All jib area behind the mast was free area which encouraged the increases in size. I remember planning flat out reaching from far out in Torbay to the harbour with just the Genny up due to very strong winds with the crew flat out on the wire. This was after a championship race as we were too knackered to sail home on the full rig. Most of the useable power was I felt produced by this enormous sail. I think the new Musto genny we had was around 90 -100sg feet as big as or probably bigger than an FDs. A jib roller was essential equipment.
Cheers Alan
Jib pole never had one. Used a very large spinnaker which was sent on a short pole. The length of the pole being determine by a rule which measured how far the mast was from the bow.
Last edited by alan williams on Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by chris » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:23 am

the jib fairleads on Blue Peter I14 no 485 ( so an earlier example) are level with the thwart. I was given one of the large genoas and had it recut for £30 as an experiment. Still seems quite big but is manageable and the boat seems well balance. If I can find another old sail I might try one that is just up to the shrouds which would give the option of using some sort of barber hauler to improve pointing.
BP14.jpg

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Re: I14 K869 Agamemnon

Post by alan watson » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:06 pm

She looks gorgeous.

What a beautiful dinghy.

ALAN

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